The small question thread Part 2.

Why did Eric reach out to a Marine recruiter just a few days before the shooting? Was it because he wanted his parents to feel proud of him? Or was it to divert any suspicion? Langman points out in his book Why Kids Kill that the majority of shooters have an older, more successful sibling. After Eric’s brother Kevin graduated from Columbine we don’t have a lot of information on him. Dylan has his older brother Bryon, but he did not go to college, was working at a car lot, and had issues with his parents about smoking pot. He was even kicked out for a while. But this is definitely true for Michael Carneal and Kip Kinkel.

What would have happened if Eric had been seriously or critically shot by Neil Gardner? Would Dylan continue on his own or commit suicide right then and there?

true_crime wrote:

Why did Eric reach out to a Marine recruiter just a few days before the shooting? Was it because he wanted his parents to feel proud of him? Or was it to divert any suspicion?

He didn't.
The Marine recruiter reached out to Eric. He got his name off a list provided by the school. He contacted Eric on April 2nd (pg. 10087). Eric went to an interview and took a recruitment test on April 5th. He expressed to the recruiter that he wasn't sure he wanted to join and that he wanted to think about it. The recruiter contacted him again on April 8th and again Eric told the recruiter he was thinking about it. The recruiter pushed for a home visit to talk it over with his parents; this was set up for April 15th. And that was the visit at which Kathy Harris revealed Eric was taking Luvox and the recruiter marked Eric as PDQ (permanently disqualified), even though what he told the Harrises at the time was that he'd need to talk to his supervisors about it.
Eric didn't reach out to the recruiter and, presumably, he only went along with it because his parents had been on his back about not having plans for after high school. That was as good a cover as any, I suppose. Eric and Dylan knew NBK was mere days away. I don't believe anything would have diverted him from their plans.

true_crime wrote:

Why Kids Kill that the majority of shooters have an older, more successful sibling. After Eric’s brother Kevin graduated from Columbine we don’t have a lot of information on him.

We'll never know if this is the case, but my interpretation of Eric is that this is probably accurate. He seemed to want to have respect, wanted people to think he was smart and had advice to give. He seemed to want to be a leader, but he felt that no one wanted his input and he didn't feel respected or in control. Having a brother who had those things may have affected him. Eric seemed to love and respect his brother, though, so while there may have been a degree of jealousy I don't think that he was angry at Kevin for it. Maybe frustrated that he couldn't achieve that level of success, maybe it impacted his view of himself/ lowered his self esteem. Again, I'm speculating based upon what we infer from his writings.

true_crime wrote:

What would have happened if Eric had been seriously or critically shot by Neil Gardner? Would Dylan continue on his own or commit suicide right then and there?

I think Dylan would have still shot at/killed people. I think, for some reason, he felt he had to do that in order to be able to pull the trigger on himself. He needed something he could never "come back" from before he could actually bring himself to suicide. Maybe his spree would have been shorter, maybe he would have killed himself sooner than he did. But I 100% believe that neither boy had any intention of turning back or surviving that day.

[quote="thelmar"]Why did Eric reach out to a Marine recruiter just a few days before the shooting? Was it because he wanted his parents to feel proud of him? Or was it to divert any suspicion?

He didn't.
The Marine recruiter reached out to Eric. He got his name off a list provided by the school. He contacted Eric on April 2nd (pg. 10087). Eric went to an interview and took a recruitment test on April 5th. He expressed to the recruiter that he wasn't sure he wanted to join and that he wanted to think about it. The recruiter contacted him again on April 8th and again Eric told the recruiter he was thinking about it. The recruiter pushed for a home visit to talk it over with his parents; this was set up for April 15th. And that was the visit at which Kathy Harris revealed Eric was taking Luvox and the recruiter marked Eric as PDQ (permanently disqualified), even though what he told the Harrises at the time was that he'd need to talk to his supervisors about it.
Eric didn't reach out to the recruiter and, presumably, he only went along with it because his parents had been on his back about not having plans for after high school. That was as good a cover as any, I suppose. Eric and Dylan knew NBK was mere days away. I don't believe anything would have diverted him from their plans.

[quote="true_crime"]Why Kids Kill that the majority of shooters have an older, more successful sibling. After Eric’s brother Kevin graduated from Columbine we don’t have a lot of information on him.
We'll never know if this is the case, but my interpretation of Eric is that this is probably accurate. He seemed to want to have respect, wanted people to think he was smart and had advice to give. He seemed to want to be a leader, but he felt that no one wanted his input and he didn't feel respected or in control. Having a brother who had those things may have affected him. Eric seemed to love and respect his brother, though, so while there may have been a degree of jealousy I don't think that he was angry at Kevin for it. Maybe frustrated that he couldn't achieve that level of success, maybe it impacted his view of himself/ lowered his self esteem. Again, I'm speculating based upon what we infer from his writings.

true_crime wrote:

What would have happened if Eric had been seriously or critically shot by Neil Gardner? Would Dylan continue on his own or commit suicide right then and there?
I think Dylan would have still shot at/killed people. I think, for some reason, he felt he had to do that in order to be able to pull the trigger on himself. He needed something he could never "come back" from before he could actually bring himself to suicide. Maybe his spree would have been shorter, maybe he would have killed himself sooner than he did. But I 100% believe that neither boy had any intention of turning back or surviving that day.

Thank you Thelmar for clearing that up for me! I forgot that the recruiter had reached out to him. I agree with you though, he was only doing that to make his parents feel proud of him. I feel that that is the more plausible explanation than trying to cover their plans.

I think that no matter what, neither boy was going to divert from the plan or turn back.

What’s kind of interesting is that when Kevin was a senior and Eric was a freshman Eric would go to his football games (he was a kicker I believe). Eric played soccer his freshman year (I can’t remember if it was a hobby or if he was on a team? I don’t think he made the team). He dressed “preppy” until his junior year. So from the outside looking in it seems that Eric would have been the more popular one. But apparently their junior/senior years Dylan was the more well liked boy and had a pretty large sized circle of friends he hung around with.

Was Eric’s longing to be a leader due to his upbringing of having a retired Air Force father or to increase his self-esteem? Was it due to his family being transient that made Eric feel alone, out of control, and lost? One family the Harrises agreed to meet with afterwards (was it the Mausers?) got the impression that Wayne was stern and the head of the household, kind of a my way or the highway type of person. If you listen to the full call of when Wayne called 911 during the shooting he says that the television is reporting that his son is a member of the Trenchcoat Mafia, that that is what they are calling it on tv. This makes it sound like although he kept notes/a journal about his son’s behavioral incidents, he didn’t truly know his son.

For a school paper Eric wrote “It was the hardest moving from Plattsburgh. I have the most memories from there. When I left (his friends) I felt alone, lost and even agitated that I had spent so much time with them and now I have to go because of something I can’t stop. It doesn’t take long to make a friend but it takes only two words to lose one. Those are we’re moving … Losing a friend is almost the worst thing that can happen to a person especially in the childhood years. Every time I lost one I went through the worst days of my life …”

You’re right, neither boy expected or wanted to leave that school alive on April 20. Dylan even wrote those words. And Eric said he was hoping to go down in an epic gunfight with the cops. It would just be really interesting to see how the shooting would have been different if Gardner had shot Eric.

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was wondering if there’s any more information on the relationship between Robyn and Brooks? I don’t remember where I read it, but I do recall Brooks having some sort of animosity towards Robyn. Was it in the 11 K? Or am I misremembering?

It came from his book
"I never liked Robyn. I didn't talk to her much. I knew she had a romantic interest in Dylan, but he didn't return it."

He's also upset that she wasn't punished for helping them buy the guns.
"Did she face charges like Mark and P hilip did? No. Not one. To this day, Robyn has never been charged with anything. Mark provided Eric and Dylan with one weapon, and he's in jail until 2005. Robyn got them three guns, and she's at home.
Funny how our system works."

I think the main reason is because she complied with the police. She may have cut a deal with them if she gave into.

true_crime wrote:

Do you think the boys could have ever imagined that people 20 years into the future would still be discussing their actions and analyzing every small detail of their lives?

Yes I believe so. They wanted this. I am sure they didn't think a bunch of forensics nerds would be still trying to figure it out.

Anybody know what Dylan said on the redacted part of Bree's statement, before people start screaming? Would assume not and have my suspicions, but then you guys got the shitlists, etc, somehow.

cakeman wrote:

Anybody know what Dylan said on the redacted part of Bree's statement, before people start screaming?  Would assume not and have my suspicions, but then you guys got the shitlists, etc, somehow.

I don't but I would be interested to find out as well

Lizpuff wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Anybody know what Dylan said on the redacted part of Bree's statement, before people start screaming?  Would assume not and have my suspicions, but then you guys got the shitlists, etc, somehow.

I don't but I would be interested to find out as well

Notice it says Dylan laughs and says [redacted] and people scream, then Eric laughs and tells Bree everybody will die when they blow up the school. If Dylan's comment was also about blowing up the library, and I can't imagine what else, would bolster my own theory as well as perhaps show how Eric was a 'follower' of Dylan, contra popular wisdom.

I've always thought that the redacted comment by Dylan in Bree's statement was in reference to the death erection mentioned by Amanda Stair ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) and Josh Lapp. Since many other people mentioned Harris and Klebold talk about blowing up the library it seems odd that it would be redacted only in Bree's statement, whereas, for privacy reasons, they might have wanted to keep the "look at his dick" comment from general public knowledge.
Amanda didn't relay the "dick comment" to police at the time, I believe because she thought she misheard what was said. Josh Lapp relayed it in his statement but he didn't specify where Eric and Dylan were when it was said and Lapp assumed, based on the comment, that they had shot the boy between the legs.  
I guess I've always assumed that, because of where Bree claimed Dylan was standing when he said it, that it would be easy to figure out which victim she was referring to and the police redacted it to protect his privacy and that of his family.
Just my 2 cents, though. I have no proof.

thelmar wrote:

I've always thought that the redacted comment by Dylan in Bree's statement was in reference to the death erection mentioned by Amanda Stair ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) and Josh Lapp. Since many other people mentioned Harris and Klebold talk about blowing up the library it seems odd that it would be redacted only in Bree's statement, whereas, for privacy reasons, they might have wanted to keep the "look at his dick" comment from general public knowledge.
Amanda didn't relay the "dick comment" to police at the time, I believe because she thought she misheard what was said. Josh Lapp relayed it in his statement but he didn't specify where Eric and Dylan were when it was said and Lapp assumed, based on the comment, that they had shot the boy between the legs.  
I guess I've always assumed that, because of where Bree claimed Dylan was standing when he said it, that it would be easy to figure out which victim she was referring to and the police redacted it to protect his privacy and that of his family.
Just my 2 cents, though. I have no proof.

Honestly, that's a really believable theory. I don't understand why the anyone would redact the statement if it was about blowing up the place since Eric's statement about it wasn't redacted. The people making these documents were not trying to push the leader/follower narrative, so it wouldn't serve them any good to redact the statement. On the other hand, it's possible that it was a mistake and that Eric's statement was meant to be redacted as well.

thelmar wrote:

I've always thought that the redacted comment by Dylan in Bree's statement was in reference to the death erection mentioned by Amanda Stair ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) and Josh Lapp. Since many other people mentioned Harris and Klebold talk about blowing up the library it seems odd that it would be redacted only in Bree's statement, whereas, for privacy reasons, they might have wanted to keep the "look at his dick" comment from general public knowledge.
Amanda didn't relay the "dick comment" to police at the time, I believe because she thought she misheard what was said. Josh Lapp relayed it in his statement but he didn't specify where Eric and Dylan were when it was said and Lapp assumed, based on the comment, that they had shot the boy between the legs.  
I guess I've always assumed that, because of where Bree claimed Dylan was standing when he said it, that it would be easy to figure out which victim she was referring to and the police redacted it to protect his privacy and that of his family.
Just my 2 cents, though. I have no proof.

Makes some sense, except for the screaming, unless maybe the comment was about shooting them between the legs. And any theory I have is going to be based around something not redacted, so I'm with you on  "if it was that, why didn't they redact that elsewhere" for any idea I've got. Given they both laugh, and Eric did say something about the bombs, I have to entertain that Dylan made a more specific comment about the bombs, since it seems to me it was going off while they were in the library, and that this fact is covered up, which would explain the redaction.

Also I think it's been said the comment about a death erection was after shooting Isaah/Matt, but that hasn't happened yet.

Does anyone have a transcript for HFH? Namely the ending when Chris Morris, Dylan and a few others are talking about the talent show and someone getting an F in class.

Or am I misremembering?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Does anyone have a transcript for HFH? Namely the ending when Chris Morris, Dylan and a few others are talking about the talent show and someone getting an F in class.

Or am I misremembering?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

here are some

Odd how the initial reports place the bombs in the kitchen. Anybody know the story behind that?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

What pages in the 11k report shows the details of what they found in the Harris' and Klebold's home? I found what they seized but not a report of their findings.

How old were Mr. Sanders kids when he died?

Miasmom1028 wrote:

What pages in the 11k report shows the details of what they found in the Harris' and Klebold's home? I found what they seized but not a report of their findings.

A number of officers were involved in the search of the Harris and Klebold residences, I wasn't able to determine who all of them were. Here are a few of the statements I've been able to dig up.

Adams pg. 10224- 10230 (most detailed of Harris home)
Slater pg. 8642 (Harris home)
Greenwell's description of the search can be found at pg. 9057- 9058 (Harris home)
McCasky pg. 9088- 9090 (Harris home)
Euchler pg. 7707- 7708 and Grove pg. 7810 (Harris home; part of bomb squad that was called when gas smelled at the home)
Linne pg. 7713 (Harris home)
Hille pg. 9077- 9079 (Klebold home)
Wheedon pg. 10222- 10223 (Harris home)
Zimmerman pg. 10606- 10608 (Klebold home)
Moore pg. 10609- 10611 (Klebold home)

Interestingly, while looking for these, I came across a few statements that describe Kevin Harris arriving at the Harris home. I'd not remembered reading this.
pg. 7958
Shortly after our arrival we were informed that the suspects mother and her lawyer were on scene. The brother of the suspect made an abrupt arrival to the scene and was stopped before running the street barricade. The police on scene questioned him and searched his vehicle.
pg. 7965
At 15:10 hours, approximately, a kid who was later identified as Eric Harris' brother arrived at barricade, placing bags out on ground. Law enforcement at scene searched car and brother of Eric Harris.

thelmar wrote:

Miasmom1028 wrote:

What pages in the 11k report shows the details of what they found in the Harris' and Klebold's home? I found what they seized but not a report of their findings.

A number of officers were involved in the search of the Harris and Klebold residences, I wasn't able to determine who all of them were. Here are a few of the statements I've been able to dig up.

Adams pg. 10224- 10230 (most detailed of Harris home)
Slater pg. 8642 (Harris home)
Greenwell's description of the search can be found at pg. 9057- 9058 (Harris home)
McCasky pg. 9088- 9090 (Harris home)
Euchler pg. 7707- 7708 and Grove pg. 7810 (Harris home; part of bomb squad that was called when gas smelled at the home)
Linne pg. 7713 (Harris home)
Hille pg. 9077- 9079 (Klebold home)
Wheedon pg. 10222- 10223 (Harris home)
Zimmerman pg. 10606- 10608 (Klebold home)
Moore pg. 10609- 10611 (Klebold home)

Interestingly, while looking for these, I came across a few statements that describe Kevin Harris arriving at the Harris home. I'd not remembered reading this.
pg. 7958
Shortly after our arrival we were informed that the suspects mother and her lawyer were on scene. The brother of the suspect made an abrupt arrival to the scene and was stopped before running the street barricade. The police on scene questioned him and searched his vehicle.
pg. 7965
At 15:10 hours, approximately, a kid who was later identified as Eric Harris' brother arrived at barricade, placing bags out on ground. Law enforcement at scene searched car and brother of Eric Harris.

That's new to me. I cannot even imagine if Kevin was up in college, that drive down was probably torture.

I was talking to someone today about the case and they mentioned that in the police report it said that Eric had a lock on his door and only Eric had a key. I don't remember that... is that right? We know Kathy didn't want him going into his room but that is about all I recall.

When I read it, Kathy didn’t want the officer to go in. But I don’t recall anything about his door being locked and him only have the key. That would be odd that some parents would let their teenage son have the only key to a room.

Miasmom1028 wrote:

When I read it, Kathy didn’t want the officer to go in. But I don’t recall anything about his door being locked and him only have the key. That would be odd that some parents would let their teenage son have the only key to a room.

It sounded odd to me too! Like something you’d see on a Law and Order episode.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was talking to someone today about the case and they mentioned that in the police report it said that Eric had a lock on his door and only Eric had a key. I don't remember that... is that right? We know Kathy didn't want him going into his room but that is about all I recall.

That seems improbable given the trouble Eric had gotten into with the van arrest. I think Wayne and Kathy were keeping a close eye on him; if Eric had been locking his door and basically forbidding them entry, I don't think that would have gone over very well with Wayne.

I looked through the page numbers provided above and found that Officer Wheeldon pg. 10222- 10223 was one of the first officers to the Harris home and Wheedon conducted the search inside the house specifically looking to make sure that Eric was not on site. According to him, "Once downstairs Wheeldon walked into a bedroom located on the southwest corner of the basement. The bedroom door was open and Wheeldon walked inside with his gun drawn looking for Eric. Once inside the room, Wheeldon observed a clear plastic bag containing an unknown amount of shotgun shells on the bed." This was Eric's room; the door was open.

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was talking to someone today about the case and they mentioned that in the police report it said that Eric had a lock on his door and only Eric had a key. I don't remember that... is that right? We know Kathy didn't want him going into his room but that is about all I recall.

That seems improbable given the trouble Eric had gotten into with the van arrest. I think Wayne and Kathy were keeping a close eye on him; if Eric had been locking his door and basically forbidding them entry, I don't think that would have gone over very well with Wayne.

I looked through the page numbers provided above and found that Officer Wheeldon pg. 10222- 10223 was one of the first officers to the Harris home and Wheedon conducted the search inside the house specifically looking to make sure that Eric was not on site. According to him, "Once downstairs Wheeldon walked into a bedroom located on the southwest corner of the basement. The bedroom door was open and Wheeldon walked inside with his gun drawn looking for Eric. Once inside the room, Wheeldon observed a clear plastic bag containing an unknown amount of shotgun shells on the bed." This was Eric's room; the door was open.

I don't recall having heard anything about Eric having his door locked, but I have to agree with thelmar. If he ever did have have his door locked then it was certainly before the van incident. Afterwards, I am sure he wasn't allowed to do anything like that.

Was this search by Wheeldon after the shooting? It's possible that Eric would have left his door open that day and the shells on the bed as sort of a message. Kind of like leaving behind a trail. I would just venture to guess the door being open that day was intentional.

hvernon wrote:

Was this search by Wheeldon after the shooting? It's possible that Eric would have left his door open that day and the shells on the bed as sort of a message. Kind of like leaving behind a trail. I would just venture to guess the door being open that day was intentional.

The statement does not have the exact time of the search but Wheeldon was one of the first to make entry into the Harris home. He is the one that contacted Wayne, Kathy, and Kathy's sister upon entry and told them he needed to search the house for Eric. I believe that, timeline-wise, Eric and Dylan were already dead by the time their homes were searched but that police were still surrounding the school and just beginning to make entry into and clear the school so they didn't know the two were dead yet. I say this because Wheeldon's first assignment was to go to the site of the diversionary bomb. He then went to the command post at the school and was directed to go to the Harris home.

hvernon wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was talking to someone today about the case and they mentioned that in the police report it said that Eric had a lock on his door and only Eric had a key. I don't remember that... is that right? We know Kathy didn't want him going into his room but that is about all I recall.

That seems improbable given the trouble Eric had gotten into with the van arrest. I think Wayne and Kathy were keeping a close eye on him; if Eric had been locking his door and basically forbidding them entry, I don't think that would have gone over very well with Wayne.

I looked through the page numbers provided above and found that Officer Wheeldon pg. 10222- 10223 was one of the first officers to the Harris home and Wheedon conducted the search inside the house specifically looking to make sure that Eric was not on site. According to him, "Once downstairs Wheeldon walked into a bedroom located on the southwest corner of the basement. The bedroom door was open and Wheeldon walked inside with his gun drawn looking for Eric. Once inside the room, Wheeldon observed a clear plastic bag containing an unknown amount of shotgun shells on the bed." This was Eric's room; the door was open.

I don't recall having heard anything about Eric having his door locked, but I have to agree with thelmar. If he ever did have have his door locked then it was certainly before the van incident. Afterwards, I am sure he wasn't allowed to do anything like that.

Was this search by Wheeldon after the shooting? It's possible that Eric would have left his door open that day and the shells on the bed as sort of a message. Kind of like leaving behind a trail. I would just venture to guess the door being open that day was intentional.

Page 10222 Officer Wheeldon is on scene along with other officers in route. When he came here, it was Wayne and Kathy Harris. Along with Kathy's sister. When they approached the door, they asked to go inside and was denied entry (probably because the officers did not have a search warrant yet). The also advised that a lawyers was on his way to the home. The lawyer also probably advised that police cannot enter without a warrant as well. They also noticed a strong smell of automobile engine gasoline through out the house. When they asked Wayne if it was normal. He stated "no". They explained that since bombs were involved, they needed to make sure that the home was safe. Then the Harrises let them in. They are able to locate the strong gas smell in the garage. So know we know where E&D made most of the bomb making stuff. They most likely even make the propane bombs in the garage as well.

Now back to the anwer to the question. On page 10222-10223 the officers was making their way down stairs. Kathy told them they couldn't go down there. Lets be honest everyone. Wayne already called 911 suspecting Eric was invovled. I think that either friends were calling the house asking for him and explaining what had happened. Or Tom called and told Wayne what he suspected to be true. Kathy and Wayne already knew he was involved and to my assumption most likly ripped his room apart before the cops arrived. This is why Kathy stated the cops couldn't go down there. She knew what was down there and didn't wany anything to incrimate them (or Eric). I don't think Eric left the door open to the cops. Wayne, Kathy and Kathy's sister were already at the home. I am sure they already went into it before the cops arrived. Hence why Kathy didn't want the cops to go down there.

I wanted to read some of the witness statements from the people who were still in the cafeteria after the library massacre.

I think there were still students... does anyone know pages they may be on?

Screamingophelia wrote:

I wanted to read some of the witness statements from the people who were still in the cafeteria after the library massacre.

I think there were still students...  does anyone know pages they may be on?

I have some for you. It's a start at least.

Mary Campbell 2623-2333
Brittany Weeden 4700-4704
Bryan Grande 3162-3166
Joey Marcolte 3645-3647
Mike Gagre 3081-3084

Miasmom1028 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I wanted to read some of the witness statements from the people who were still in the cafeteria after the library massacre.

I think there were still students...  does anyone know pages they may be on?

I have some for you. It's a start at least.

Mary Campbell 2623-2333
Brittany Weeden 4700-4704
Bryan Grande 3162-3166
Joey Marcolte 3645-3647
Mike Gagre 3081-3084

Thank you!!!

Also was Philip Duran's sister in the school that day? I vaugely remember this and Marc's girlfriend was at Columbine, right? Her name is slipping my mind.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Also was Philip Duran's sister in the school that day? I vaugely remember this and  Marc's girlfriend was at Columbine, right? Her name is slipping my mind.

Phil Duran actually had a brother and sister in the school.
His sister, Julia, was in the office taking a correspondence test for college. When it started, she hid under a desk and then was able to flee out the north side of the school to the park (pg. 5687)
His brother, Simon, had just left the cafeteria after buying a snack. He and a friend then went to Clement Park to get his car and were southbound on Pierce St. starting to drive away to go to lunch when they saw kids running out of the school. (pg. 6352)

The phone call recorded between Chris Morris and Phil Duran (pg. 10818- 10819), Duran says;
"That's when I called my house, and luckily my brother and sister both made it out"
"My sister was up in office, dude, fuckin' hiding underneath a desk and then she saw a bunch of kids running up the hall and she took off with 'em."
"My brother was sittin' at the street light... fuckin' when the first pipe bomb went off. My cousin had just left the cafteria like five minutes before dude."
I'm not sure who the cousin is. The only other Duran I found was Domonic; his statement is brief and says he was in math class when the attack started. He doesn't mention being in the cafeteria prior to math.

I'm not sure about Mark's girlfriend, Jessica Miklich. I'll have to look into that.
[edited to add: Miklich had already graduated high school. In her interview (pg. 8176) it says that she was born in September 1979, so she would have been 19 when Columbine happened. It doesn't say where she was at the time of the attack but on pg. 8178 it says, "On April 20, 1999, Miklich heard about the incident occurring at Columbine High School and tried to reach Manes."

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Also was Philip Duran's sister in the school that day? I vaugely remember this and  Marc's girlfriend was at Columbine, right? Her name is slipping my mind.

Phil Duran actually had a brother and sister in the school.
His sister, Julia, was in the office taking a correspondence test for college. When it started, she hid under a desk and then was able to flee out the north side of the school to the park (pg. 5687)
His brother, Simon, had just left the cafeteria after buying a snack. He and a friend then went to Clement Park to get his car and were southbound on Pierce St. starting to drive away to go to lunch when they saw kids running out of the school. (pg. 6352)

The phone call recorded between Chris Morris and Phil Duran (pg. 10818- 10819), Duran says;
"That's when I called my house, and luckily my brother and sister both made it out"
"My sister was up in office, dude, fuckin' hiding underneath a desk and then she saw a bunch of kids running up the hall and she took off with 'em."
"My brother was sittin' at the street light... fuckin' when the first pipe bomb went off. My cousin had just left the cafteria like five minutes before dude."
I'm not sure who the cousin is. The only other Duran I found was Domonic; his statement is brief and says he was in math class when the attack started. He doesn't mention being in the cafeteria prior to math.

I'm not sure about Mark's girlfriend, Jessica Miklich. I'll have to look into that.
[edited to add: Miklich had already graduated high school. In her interview (pg. 8176) it says that she was born in September 1979, so she would have been 19 when Columbine happened. It doesn't say where she was at the time of the attack but on pg. 8178 it says, "On April 20, 1999, Miklich heard about the incident occurring at Columbine High School and tried to reach Manes."

Thank you!!

Any interesting quotes in the 11k about Dylan and computers? I'm interested in more stuff like the time he built his own computer, or any unusual things he was doing on it, or just cool anecdotes.

sympathyforEandD wrote:

Any interesting quotes in the 11k about Dylan and computers? I'm interested in more stuff like the time he built his own computer, or any unusual things he was doing on it, or just cool anecdotes.

I have not searched everything, but here are a few of the things that I found:

Pg. 7172
Ryan Shumer talked briefly about the video class when Klebold did a simulation of blowing up the school with computer graphics.

Pg. 8200
Dykeman said Dylan hacked the computer for the locker combos and Eric and Dylan had the locker # and combinations for every kid in school. He also said that kids keep the same lockers for all 4 yrs, which an interesting tibdbit that I didn't know. So, even though they were suspended for this, I doubt that Columbine administrators changed all 1200+ kids locker combos. Which means that even after they got punished, Zach, Dylan and Eric may have still kept some kids combos.

From Tom Klebold
Pg. 10508 described Dylan as a computer assistant at school, he did troubleshooting and assisted with computers.
Pg. 10509 Dylan and his friends socialized on the computer and would play computer games via the internet.
Pg. 10510 Dylan built his own computer
Pg. 10511 he wanted to be a computer science major and had been accepted at U of Arizona.

Sue Klebold
pg. 10523 said Dylan spent a lot of time at his computer that he had built himself.
Pg. 10524 Dylan played lots of computer games and that bothered her.

Pg. 10607 there were 2 computers on the main level of the Klebold home and police seized 3 computers from Dylan’s room.

Chris Tibaldo
pg. 10902 said he, Dylan, and Zach Heckler hung out in the computer lab together, putting together computers for school. They also shared knowledge about the Linus operating system, though Klebold and Heckler knew relatively little about it compared to Tibaldo.
Pg. 10906 Tibaldo stated Zach and Dylan were not computer wizards. They would get into a chat room on IRC and talk once in a while. Mostly they would talk about Linux programming.

Robyn Anderson mentioned Dylan wanting to be a computer engineer and Zach mentions Dylan wanting to study computer science, but didn't think Dylan was smart enough.

thelmar wrote:

sympathyforEandD wrote:

Any interesting quotes in the 11k about Dylan and computers? I'm interested in more stuff like the time he built his own computer, or any unusual things he was doing on it, or just cool anecdotes.

I have not searched everything, but here are a few of the things that I found:

Pg. 7172
Ryan Shumer talked briefly about the video class when Klebold did a simulation of blowing up the school with computer graphics.

Pg. 8200
Dykeman said Dylan hacked the computer for the locker combos and Eric and Dylan had the locker # and combinations for every kid in school. He also said that kids keep the same lockers for all 4 yrs, which an interesting tibdbit that I didn't know. So, even though they were suspended for this, I doubt that Columbine administrators changed all 1200+ kids locker combos. Which means that even after they got punished, Zach, Dylan and Eric may have still kept some kids combos.  

From Tom Klebold
Pg. 10508 described Dylan as a computer assistant at school, he did troubleshooting and assisted with computers.
Pg. 10509 Dylan and his friends socialized on the computer and would play computer games via the internet.
Pg. 10510 Dylan built his own computer
Pg. 10511 he wanted to be a computer science major and had been accepted at U of Arizona.

Sue Klebold
pg. 10523 said Dylan spent a lot of time at his computer that he had built himself.
Pg. 10524 Dylan played lots of computer games and that bothered her.

Pg. 10607 there were 2 computers on the main level of the Klebold home and police seized 3 computers from Dylan’s room.

Chris Tibaldo
pg. 10902 said he, Dylan, and Zach Heckler hung out in the computer lab together, putting together computers for school. They also shared knowledge about the Linus operating system, though Klebold and Heckler knew relatively little about it compared to Tibaldo.
Pg. 10906 Tibaldo stated Zach and Dylan were not computer wizards. They would get into a chat room on IRC and talk once in a while. Mostly they would talk about Linux programming.

Robyn Anderson mentioned Dylan wanting to be a computer engineer and Zach mentions Dylan wanting to study computer science, but didn't think Dylan was smart enough.

Zach and Dylan's friendship always intrigues me because I wonder if Zach talking about Dylan the way he did after was because of the shooting or if he felt that way about Dylan beforehand? I think in the 11k he spoke about wanting to get Dylan kicked out of doing sound for the theatre and having Yoshi Carroll take over...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Thanks dude!

Screamingophelia wrote:

Zach and Dylan's friendship always intrigues me because I wonder if Zach talking about Dylan the way he did after was because of the shooting or if he felt that way about Dylan beforehand? I think in the 11k he spoke about wanting to get Dylan kicked out of doing sound for the theatre and having Yoshi Carroll take over...

This was in Yoshi Carroll's statement
pg. 5420- 5421

Quote :

Carroll advised that Klebold was the sound man for the school plays and often worked the sound board. He advised that Zack Heckler had told him that Klebold was no good at the job but loved it. Carroll was led to believe that Klebold considered it his sound board. Carroll believes that Heckler told the teacher that Klebold was not very good board man and suggested Carroll to take Klebold's place

If what Carroll says is true, and I don't see why he'd make something like that up, I wonder if Dylan knew. It seems to me that, at least at one point in time, Dylan thought he and Zach were really close. The entry from his journal on July 23, 1997 says:

Quote :

My best friend ever: the friend who shared, experimented, laughed, took chances with, & appreciated me more than any friend ever did has been has been ordained.... "passed on".... in my book. Ever since [edited] (who I wouldnt mind killing) has loved him... thats the only place hes been: with her... If anyone had any idea how sad I am... I mean we were the TEAM. When him & I first were friends, hell I finally found someone who was like me: who appreciated me & showed very common interests. Ever since 7th grade ive felt lonely... when [edited] came around, I finally felt hapiness (sometimes)... we did cigars, drinking, sabotage to houses, EVERYTHING for the first time together. & now that he's"moved on" I feel so lonely, w/o a friend. Oh well, maybe he'll come around

Either there was a uneven dynamic in their friendship all along or something happened to lower Zach's opinion of Dylan.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in Yoshi Carroll's statement (pg. 5421) I also found this:

Quote :

Carroll advised that during the previous school year, Klebold, Heckler and another student whom he believed to be Chris Tabaldo, maintained the school's web server and web page. He advised that those three students had given themselves access to the web server and had sent e-mail bombs out to other locations and were hacking into the Jefferson County School District computers. Carroll advised Inv. Eaton that the three had lost this job due to their hacking. Carroll advised Inv. Eaton that at the beginning of this school year, his senior school year, he went to Mr Rich Long, who ran the computer program and asked if he could maintain the system to learn more about computers. Carroll advised that he was given the responsibility by Mr. Long.

I'm not sure this is accurate because Rich Long doesn't mention it. In his statement it was the stealing of the locker combinations that got Harris, Klebold, and Heckler suspended and prohibited from working with the schools computers. But, Tibaldo does talk about hanging out in the computer lab with Heckler and Klebold, so maybe there's something to it.
I do wonder, though, if the reason that Eric and Dylan hated Yoshi was because he took their place in the computer lab.
Another interesting thing in Carroll's statement is this, pg. 5418. He said he worked a lot with Zach Heckler on the school plays and

Quote :

Carroll mentioned that when they had finished all work on the latest school play, "Smoke In The Room," Heckler stated to him, "Ya know, up until now I really didn't like you, now I think you are okay."

So it looks like Heckler hadn't liked him either for awhile.

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Zach and Dylan's friendship always intrigues me because I wonder if Zach talking about Dylan the way he did after was because of the shooting or if he felt that way about Dylan beforehand? I think in the 11k he spoke about wanting to get Dylan kicked out of doing sound for the theatre and having Yoshi Carroll take over...

This was in Yoshi Carroll's statement
pg. 5420- 5421

Quote :

Carroll advised that Klebold was the sound man for the school plays and often worked the sound board. He advised that Zack Heckler had told him that Klebold was no good at the job but loved it. Carroll was led to believe that Klebold considered it his sound board. Carroll believes that Heckler told the teacher that Klebold was not very good board man and suggested Carroll to take Klebold's place

If what Carroll says is true, and I don't see why he'd make something like that up, I wonder if Dylan knew. It seems to me that, at least at one point in time, Dylan thought he and Zach were really close. The entry from his journal on July 23, 1997 says:

Quote :

My best friend ever: the friend who shared, experimented, laughed, took chances with, & appreciated me more than any friend ever did has been has been ordained.... "passed on".... in my book. Ever since [edited] (who I wouldnt mind killing) has loved him... thats the only place hes been: with her... If anyone had any idea how sad I am... I mean we were the TEAM. When him & I first were friends, hell I finally found someone who was like me: who appreciated me & showed very common interests. Ever since 7th grade ive felt lonely... when [edited] came around, I finally felt hapiness (sometimes)... we did cigars, drinking, sabotage to houses, EVERYTHING for the first time together. & now that he's"moved on" I feel so lonely, w/o a friend. Oh well, maybe he'll come around

Either there was a uneven dynamic in their friendship all along or something happened to lower Zach's opinion of Dylan.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in Yoshi Carroll's statement (pg. 5421) I also found this:

Quote :

Carroll advised that during the previous school year, Klebold, Heckler and another student whom he believed to be Chris Tabaldo, maintained the school's web server and web page. He advised that those three students had given themselves access to the web server and had sent e-mail bombs out to other locations and were hacking into the Jefferson County School District computers. Carroll advised Inv. Eaton that the three had lost this job due to their hacking. Carroll advised Inv. Eaton that at the beginning of this school year, his senior school year, he went to Mr Rich Long, who ran the computer program and asked if he could maintain the system to learn more about computers. Carroll advised that he was given the responsibility by Mr. Long.

I'm not sure this is accurate because Rich Long doesn't mention it. In his statement it was the stealing of the locker combinations that got Harris, Klebold, and Heckler suspended and prohibited from working with the schools computers. But, Tibaldo does talk about hanging out in the computer lab with Heckler and Klebold, so maybe there's something to it.
I do wonder, though, if the reason that Eric and Dylan hated Yoshi was because he took their place in the computer lab.
Another interesting thing in Carroll's statement is this, pg. 5418. He said he worked a lot with Zach Heckler on the school plays and

Quote :

Carroll mentioned that when they had finished all work on the latest school play, "Smoke In The Room," Heckler stated to him, "Ya know, up until now I really didn't like you, now I think you are okay."

So it looks like Heckler hadn't liked him either for awhile.

Thank you!!

Zach seemed to have his own anger issues and what not too.

Here is an 11 K question I have. And this is going to kind of be a deep dive. But I thought on Dylan’s resume there was something that showed all the shows he worked on and I vaguely remember something saying Oklahoma was being performed spring 1999 but I never heard about anyone even rehearsing for Oklahoma at the end of the year. Then of course the shooting happened. But you would think that the musical would’ve happened before the 20th

Screamingophelia wrote:

Here is an 11 K question I have. And this is going to kind of be a deep dive. But I thought on Dylan’s resume there was something that showed all the shows he worked on and I vaguely remember something saying Oklahoma was being performed spring 1999 but I never heard about anyone even rehearsing for Oklahoma at the end of the year. Then of course the shooting happened. But you would think that the musical would’ve happened before the 20th

This was written on the resume that they provided Meg Beck at the Ascot Theatre, pg. 13018- 13019

Quote :

Dylan Klebold: Sound Engineer, will run sound system for production
Sound Experience:
Bye Bye Birdie (Spring ’97)
The Music Man (Spring ’98)
Arsenic and Old Lace (Spring ’98)
Frankenstein (Fall ’98)
Talent Show ’97
Talent Show ’98
Hispanic Dance Show (Spring ’98)
Oklahoma (in production, ’99)

Zach and Brooks also had Oklahoma listed under their experiences. Brooks indicated that he would be the student director for it and would be playing the role of Ali Hakim, the Peddler.
They paid their visit to Meg Beck on December 13, 1999- I don't know if Oklahoma was scratched and they replaced it for Smoke in the Room, or if there were originally supposed to be two plays that Spring. It looks like they did have 2 plays in the Spring of 1998. Looking through Brooks' book, though, he talks about Rachel and says how she'd just finished Smoke in the Room and he called it "the last play of the season". So if Oklahoma had been planned, it would have run before Smoke.
I read through Sue Caruthers statement, she's the teacher that headed up the drama department, and she didn't mention anything about Oklahoma either. So, I'm not sure what happened with that.

Thanks

Brooks as Ali Hakam makes so much sense....

Was it true that Dylan fell asleep in his backyard when he was 10 to awaken when it was dark? Then stay there until the morning because he heard coyotes?

Miasmom1028 wrote:

Was it true that Dylan fell asleep in his backyard when he was 10 to awaken when it was dark? Then stay there until the morning because he heard coyotes?

I have heard something similar but could not source it to anything to determine if it is true.
In the version that I heard, Dylan was exploring the mountains around his house and got himself lost for a bit. By the time he figured out which way to go, he could hear coyotes and then was too scared to go home so he spent the night outside.
As far as I remember, Sue does not mention this in her book. Not knowing where he was for an entire night seems like it would have been a memorable event worth mentioning. So, unless she has spoken about it in one of her talks, I'd take this one with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

Does anyone know why the bodies were left in the library overnight? Was there a specific reason for LE to wait to move the bodies or just didn't have time?

If my memory serves me well, they first had to make sure there were no bombs left.

I take it that the remaining basement tapes still have not been revealed. Not that it really matters. In today's environment I certainly understand not releasing them however they have been transcribed from any tidbits I have read.

Imperator wrote:

I take it that the remaining basement tapes still have not been revealed.  Not that it really matters.  In today's environment I certainly understand not releasing them however they have been transcribed from any tidbits I have read.  

Yeah, they have not been revealed and likely never will.

Apparently I don't have permissions to post new threads and want to say please delete this if not allowed but I found this, this morning.

Interesting.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What could possibly have been on Dylan’s hard drive? It was something that he felt the need to destroy. Yet we have his “journal” entries, drawings, and the Basement Tapes.

Speaking of the BT, this is a great quote by Sue Klebold in “A Mother’s Reckoning:”

“The fear of contagion was the main reason Tom and I fought so hard to keep the Basement Tapes sealed, but it was not the only one. Aside from whatever destructive behaviors another alienated kid might learn, I was horrified to think the friends and families of people who had suffered losses might be re-traumatized unwittingly, simply because they happened to be flipping through a magazine in a grocery store line, or sitting underneath a television at a sports bar.

I was also concerned that releasing the tapes would continue to feed the comforting fantasy that evil will present itself in a way only a fool could fail to recognize. For me, the tragedy at Columbine was proof of how dangerous this fantasy can be. When you watch Dylan on the videos, you think: That kid is insane, practically boiling over with rage. He is planning to commit real violence, and to die by suicide. Those parents must have been complete idiots. There’s no way they could live in the same house with that person and not know he was dangerous.

All I can say is it’s what I would have thought, too.
There was no way to release the tapes responsibly. Nor was there a convincing reason to do so. An army of professional investigators and psychologists had studied the tapes, and they had been unable to reach agreement regarding why Dylan and Eric had committed this atrocity. What on earth was the general population going to learn?”


Also, discussing their University of Arizona road trip:

“All of us were excited to see Colorado’s mountains give way to the desert vegetation. When Tom took the wheel, Dylan grabbed the camera so he could take pictures out of the car window, and said again how much he was looking forward to going to school in the desert.”

“Our tour was successful, and by the end Dylan had made up his mind: he wanted to go to the University of Arizona. We could skip the other school on our itinerary and head for home. We stopped for gas and asked Dylan to pose next to a saguaro more than three times his height. He looks remote and unkempt in the photo, developed after his death, standing with his arms uncomfortably out from his sides; to me, now, they look poised over invisible guns. At our hotel, Dylan watched a movie in his room while Tom and I made an early night of it.”

Question: What was the other college Dylan was considering?

Also in the road trip section of her memoir:
“Eventually, Dylan came down to the car alone, his head bare. I wanted to say I agreed with him, and that it was okay with me if he wore the hat, but I did not. I only said, “I’m sorry the morning started out like this. I see you decided not to wear the hat.” Dylan sounded tired but determined to brush it off. “It’s not worth fighting about; it’s just not a big deal.”
I was frankly surprised. I’d expected a little more sputtering and complaining from a seventeen-year-old. “Wow, Dyl. I’m impressed,” I said, mistaking his willingness to withdraw from the conflict for maturity. I praised him for controlling his anger but I wish now he had stomped and screamed, giving me a glimpse of the rage burning inside him. Now I wonder if he had stopped caring about anything at all.”

I just wanted to include that last section because every time I read that last line a piece of my heart chips away.

true_crime wrote:

What could possibly have been on Dylan’s hard drive? It was something that he felt the need to destroy. Yet we have his “journal” entries, drawings, and the Basement Tapes.

Question: What was the other college Dylan was considering?

On his hard drive was probably porn.
Considering what a terrible thing he did, I doubt he would be embarrassed enough about anything else.
Or maybe he destroyed it just because, without any reason to hide something. I know I would.

Regarding the other college, I wonder if he just pretended to have opted for the Arizona one, because he was lazy to drive with his parents to the second one, since he knew what was about to happen.

I’m pretty sure he was accepted into Boulder. And probably university of Colorado at Denver.

I think he saw one in Colorado and I’m not sure about the other Arizona one but he seem to like the first one I saw. But yeah I think he probably skipped the second one because he knew it was pretty pointless .

Also interesting fact. Val Schnurr went to the university of Arizona. Her and Dylan would’ve been there together

Screamingophelia wrote:

Also interesting fact. Val Schnurr went to the university of Arizona. Her and Dylan would’ve been there together

It's kind of sentimental to imagine an alternative reality where both would be normal university students and maybe even hang out.