The small question thread Part 2.

I agree with warez. The one after love looks like it says "Nichie". Maybe this is a butchered version of "Nietzsche" as in Friedrich Nietzsche. That would be my best guess. Whatever the word is, it doesn't look like an actual word.

Thanks for the answers! "warez" totally makes sense.

hvernon wrote:

I agree with warez. The one after love looks like it says "Nichie". Maybe this is a butchered version of "Nietzsche" as in Friedrich Nietzsche. That would be my best guess. Whatever the word is, it doesn't look like an actual word.

Yup, I read it as "Nichie" as well.. I even considered it being a nickname for someone but I suppose that's kind of a stretch.. It'd be interesting if it stood for Nietzsche. Has he actually ever mentioned him? His way of perceiving himself as "god" as he often wrote does kind of remind me of the "Übermensch" concept in Zarathustra.

Man, not knowing small things like that makes my brain itch a little, haha. Can't help it

hvernon wrote:

I agree with warez. The one after love looks like it says "Nichie". Maybe this is a butchered version of "Nietzsche" as in Friedrich Nietzsche. That would be my best guess. Whatever the word is, it doesn't look like an actual word.

It could have been, Dylan didn’t always spell correctly. He spelled his middle name wrong ...

Was reading some things again today and saw somewhere that the majority of the blood found on the trigger of the Tec 9 contained Eric's DNA. Any thoughts on that?
I know Eric didn't kill Dylan, so it sounds somewhat odd to me..
Did Dylan touch Eric after he killed himself?
Or was it actually Eric that fired the Tec the whole time while Dylan was crying in the corner and Cullen can die happy?
Or am i missing the obvious here?

Runes wrote:

Was reading some things again today and saw somewhere that the majority of the blood found on the trigger of the Tec 9 contained Eric's DNA. Any thoughts on that?
I know Eric didn't kill Dylan, so it sounds somewhat odd to me..
Did Dylan touch Eric after he killed himself?
Or was it actually Eric that fired the Tec the whole time while Dylan was crying in the corner and Cullen can die happy?
Or am i missing the obvious here?

From what I recall there was a write up on Wikipedia that said it then it was spun into something else, implying there was some swapping of DNA (implying they were gay)

Dylan’s blood was found on Erics pant leg because of the way they fell.

Do we know if Eric and Dylan talked about their feelings to each other? Not really about anger but rather about sadness, loneliness, things that some boys would usually be uncomfortable talking about?

I was wondering if there’s any more information on the relationship between Robyn and Brooks? I don’t remember where I read it, but I do recall Brooks having some sort of animosity towards Robyn. Was it in the 11 K? Or am I misremembering?

Neah wrote:

Do we know if Eric and Dylan talked about their feelings to each other? Not really about anger but rather about sadness, loneliness, things that some boys would usually be uncomfortable talking about?

I’ve wondered that as well. It strikes me as interesting that when Eric was emotional in the basement tapes he was by himself. And we know that Dylan use your cry to Zach and his friends but I’m not sure if that included Eric.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was wondering if there’s any more information on the relationship between Robyn and Brooks? I don’t remember where I read it, but I do recall Brooks having some sort of animosity towards Robyn. Was it in the 11 K? Or am I misremembering?

It came from his book
"I never liked Robyn. I didn't talk to her much. I knew she had a romantic interest in Dylan, but he didn't return it."

He's also upset that she wasn't punished for helping them buy the guns.
"Did she face charges like Mark and P hilip did? No. Not one. To this day, Robyn has never been charged with anything. Mark provided Eric and Dylan with one weapon, and he's in jail until 2005. Robyn got them three guns, and she's at home.
Funny how our system works."

Screamingophelia wrote:

Neah wrote:

Do we know if Eric and Dylan talked about their feelings to each other? Not really about anger but rather about sadness, loneliness, things that some boys would usually be uncomfortable talking about?

I’ve wondered that as well. It strikes me as interesting that when Eric was emotional in the basement tapes he was by himself. And we know that Dylan use your cry  to Zach and his friends but I’m not sure if that included Eric.

Dylan used to cry around his friends? Hm, didn't know that... Where did you read that? Why did he cry?
It seems somewhat out of character for him.

Runes wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Neah wrote:

Do we know if Eric and Dylan talked about their feelings to each other? Not really about anger but rather about sadness, loneliness, things that some boys would usually be uncomfortable talking about?

I’ve wondered that as well. It strikes me as interesting that when Eric was emotional in the basement tapes he was by himself. And we know that Dylan use your cry  to Zach and his friends but I’m not sure if that included Eric.

Dylan used to cry around his friends? Hm, didn't know that... Where did you read that? Why did he cry?
It seems somewhat out of character for him.

There was an interview with Sarah Slater who said he’d often cry while drinking.

Also I think Zach mentioned he’d cry about not having a girlfriend.

I also think Devon mentioned it, when he got drunk he’d cry sometimes but mostly he was happy and outgoing when he drank.

I imagine it was more when he was an underclassmen. Senior year Dylan was much different.

There’s probably a reasonable explanation and has been answered somewhere else but I happened to read a Nathan Dykeman interview from 30th April 1999 where he states that his best friend Tim Cassell, was held at gunpoint. I know this to have been John Savage. How did Nathan get his best friends name wrong? Does anyone know the story behind this?

Tesla101 wrote:

There’s probably a reasonable explanation and has been answered somewhere else but I happened to read a Nathan Dykeman interview from 30th April 1999 where he states that his best friend Tim Cassell, was held at gunpoint. I know this to have been John Savage. How did Nathan get his best friends name wrong? Does anyone know the story behind this?

Tim Kastle believed that Dylan stuck his head up into a ventilation duct where Tim was hiding and pointed a shotgun at him but that he chose not to fire when he realized that it was Tim. Tim and Dylan knew each other for several years and talked frequently because they played in the same fantasy baseball league.

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(3418 and 3421)

sscc wrote:

Tesla101 wrote:

There’s probably a reasonable explanation and has been answered somewhere else but I happened to read a Nathan Dykeman interview from 30th April 1999 where he states that his best friend Tim Cassell, was held at gunpoint. I know this to have been John Savage. How did Nathan get his best friends name wrong? Does anyone know the story behind this?

Tim Kastle believed that Dylan stuck his head up into a ventilation duct where Tim was hiding and pointed a shotgun at him but that he chose not to fire when he realized that it was Tim. Tim and Dylan knew each other for several years and talked frequently because they played in the same fantasy baseball league.

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(3418 and 3421)

I thought Dylan and Tim had talked on the night of the 19th?

properground wrote:

I thought Dylan and Tim had talked on the night of the 19th?

on p. 3419 of Kastle's statement it does say that Kastle reported he and Dylan had spoken the previous evening about Dylan possibly trading with Adam Sands for Roger Clemens in their fantasy baseball league.
I assume "previous evening" means the 19th.

Does anyone recall the reasons that Kyle left his old school a few months before the shooting to attend Columbine? I don’t know why I’ve vaguely remembering that Kyle got into trouble for fighting. And I don’t know why I am remembering it that way.

Who was the 5th person involved with the "Columbine Highway Patrol" video..
I know Eric, Eric V, Chris W and Mike V are the four *actors* - does anyone know who's filming?

Also there's a video floating around on YouTube of a jock (called Steven) and an admitted outcast talking about the shooting, Eric/Dylan/TCM etc and have been unable to find it, if anyone could link me the video I would be grateful

The Sarah Leary interview (page 06774) brings up some interesting details: Leary said on 04-20-1999 at about 7:30 AM she walked into the school from the parking lot with Eric Harris. She said she walked up the steps located next to the cafeteria, ad that Harris was wearing jeans, a white t0shirt, and a dark flannel shirt. When she was greeted by Harris in the parking lot, when he gave her a hug and asked why she was all dressed up, to which she explained her activities between second and fourth period. Sara also said that Harris was not carrying any books nor had his typical black backpack on him. Once inside of the school Sara says that Eric turned towards the art hall and she went in the other direction.

All of this seems very, VERY interesting.

Also, has anyone read the Jennifer Harmon interview (Page 006482)? It has some interesting information about Nate Dykeman, and Pauline (TCM). If so, what are your thoughts? I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Also, I don't remember seeing Eric's Hi-Point in the rampart range video. Anyone have an idea as to why it was left at home? I

properground wrote:

The Sarah Leary interview (page 06774) brings up some interesting details: Leary said on 04-20-1999 at about 7:30 AM she walked into the school from the parking lot with Eric Harris. She said she walked up the steps located next to the cafeteria, ad that Harris was wearing jeans, a white t0shirt, and a dark flannel shirt. When she was greeted by Harris in the parking lot, when he gave her a hug and asked why she was all dressed up, to which she explained her activities between second and fourth period. Sara also said that Harris was not carrying any books nor had his typical black backpack on him. Once inside of the school Sara says that Eric turned towards the art hall and she went in the other direction.

All of this seems very, VERY interesting.

Also, has anyone read the Jennifer Harmon interview (Page 006482)? It has some interesting information about Nate Dykeman, and Pauline (TCM). If so, what are your thoughts? I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

I have no reason to doubt Sara Leary. If Eric was at the school at that time, it's anyone's guess what his purpose was.

With regard to Jen Harmon-
She was in the car with Terra Ogleman and Jen's boyfriend, John Reffel. According to Jen, when she made the U-turn to follow the detour that had been set up, her window was right beside Nate's and she heard Nate say, “I can’t believe they actually did this." What she doesn't say is that, according to Dykeman, pg. 10710, as he was returning to the school after lunch he pulled  up alongside Harmon and asked what was going on, Harmon is the one who told Nate that "2 kids in trench coats were shooting up the school."

I don't think its strange that once he heard that kids in trenchcoats were involved, that Nate would automatically put 2 and 2 together and think of Eric and Dylan. Tim Kastle said that Dykeman had a feeling that Eric and Dylan were up to something because they were both absent that day and they were never absent at the same time. Dykeman said this himself in his police statement. So that, coupled with hearing about 2 kids in trench coats, is likely why he said that he couldn't believe they actually did it. Lots of people had heard them make comments about blowing up the school and killing jocks. Absolutely no one (except the Brown's) actually thought they would really do anything.

Also, her statements about Pauline Colby are incorrect. Colby told multiple people (Tina Bernacchi, Lindsay Crandall, Kathy Frommer (the teacher), and Liza Campbell) that she wasn't feeling well after the DECCA banquet and that her dad had already scheduled her a doctor's appointment. She didn't just disappear like Harmon said. Moreover, Colby's older sister, Jennifer, was in the cafeteria at the time of the attack. Pauline would have known she'd be there.

thelmar wrote:

properground wrote:

The Sarah Leary interview (page 06774) brings up some interesting details: Leary said on 04-20-1999 at about 7:30 AM she walked into the school from the parking lot with Eric Harris. She said she walked up the steps located next to the cafeteria, ad that Harris was wearing jeans, a white t0shirt, and a dark flannel shirt. When she was greeted by Harris in the parking lot, when he gave her a hug and asked why she was all dressed up, to which she explained her activities between second and fourth period. Sara also said that Harris was not carrying any books nor had his typical black backpack on him. Once inside of the school Sara says that Eric turned towards the art hall and she went in the other direction.

All of this seems very, VERY interesting.

Also, has anyone read the Jennifer Harmon interview (Page 006482)? It has some interesting information about Nate Dykeman, and Pauline (TCM). If so, what are your thoughts? I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

I have no reason to doubt Sara Leary. If Eric was at the school at that time, it's anyone's guess what his purpose was.

With regard to Jen Harmon-
She was in the car with Terra Ogleman and Jen's boyfriend, John Reffel. According to Jen, when she made the U-turn to follow the detour that had been set up, her window was right beside Nate's and she heard Nate say, “I can’t believe they actually did this." What she doesn't say is that, according to Dykeman, pg. 10710, as he was returning to the school after lunch he pulled  up alongside Harmon and asked what was going on, Harmon is the one who told Nate that "2 kids in trench coats were shooting up the school."

I don't think its strange that once he heard that kids in trenchcoats were involved, that Nate would automatically put 2 and 2 together and think of Eric and Dylan. Tim Kastle said that Dykeman had a feeling that Eric and Dylan were up to something because they were both absent that day and they were never absent at the same time. Dykeman said this himself in his police statement. So that, coupled with hearing about 2 kids in trench coats, is likely why he said that he couldn't believe they actually did it. Lots of people had heard them make comments about blowing up the school and killing jocks. Absolutely no one (except the Brown's) actually thought they would really do anything.

Also, her statements about Pauline Colby are incorrect. Colby told multiple people (Tina Bernacchi, Lindsay Crandall, Kathy Frommer (the teacher), and Liza Campbell) that she wasn't feeling well after the DECCA banquet and that her dad had already scheduled her a doctor's appointment. She didn't just disappear like Harmon said. Moreover, Colby's older sister, Jennifer, was in the cafeteria at the time of the attack. Pauline would have known she'd be there.

To play devils advocate we don’t know Nates tone of voice. With them joking about it so much and him possibly putting two and together. His tone could have been shock, sadness etc... I can’t believe you did this could have a lot of different meanings

Screamingophelia wrote:

To play devils advocate  we don’t know Nates tone of voice. With them joking about it so much and him possibly putting two and together. His tone could have been shock, sadness etc... I can’t believe you did this could have a lot of different meanings

Exactly. I've always assumed it was more along the lines of, "Oh my God, I can't believe they actually did it" expressed in horror and shock.

thelmar wrote:

properground wrote:

The Sarah Leary interview (page 06774) brings up some interesting details: Leary said on 04-20-1999 at about 7:30 AM she walked into the school from the parking lot with Eric Harris. She said she walked up the steps located next to the cafeteria, ad that Harris was wearing jeans, a white t0shirt, and a dark flannel shirt. When she was greeted by Harris in the parking lot, when he gave her a hug and asked why she was all dressed up, to which she explained her activities between second and fourth period. Sara also said that Harris was not carrying any books nor had his typical black backpack on him. Once inside of the school Sara says that Eric turned towards the art hall and she went in the other direction.

All of this seems very, VERY interesting.

Also, has anyone read the Jennifer Harmon interview (Page 006482)? It has some interesting information about Nate Dykeman, and Pauline (TCM). If so, what are your thoughts? I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

I have no reason to doubt Sara Leary. If Eric was at the school at that time, it's anyone's guess what his purpose was.

With regard to Jen Harmon-
She was in the car with Terra Ogleman and Jen's boyfriend, John Reffel. According to Jen, when she made the U-turn to follow the detour that had been set up, her window was right beside Nate's and she heard Nate say, “I can’t believe they actually did this." What she doesn't say is that, according to Dykeman, pg. 10710, as he was returning to the school after lunch he pulled  up alongside Harmon and asked what was going on, Harmon is the one who told Nate that "2 kids in trench coats were shooting up the school."

I don't think its strange that once he heard that kids in trenchcoats were involved, that Nate would automatically put 2 and 2 together and think of Eric and Dylan. Tim Kastle said that Dykeman had a feeling that Eric and Dylan were up to something because they were both absent that day and they were never absent at the same time. Dykeman said this himself in his police statement. So that, coupled with hearing about 2 kids in trench coats, is likely why he said that he couldn't believe they actually did it. Lots of people had heard them make comments about blowing up the school and killing jocks. Absolutely no one (except the Brown's) actually thought they would really do anything.

Also, her statements about Pauline Colby are incorrect. Colby told multiple people (Tina Bernacchi, Lindsay Crandall, Kathy Frommer (the teacher), and Liza Campbell) that she wasn't feeling well after the DECCA banquet and that her dad had already scheduled her a doctor's appointment. She didn't just disappear like Harmon said. Moreover, Colby's older sister, Jennifer, was in the cafeteria at the time of the attack. Pauline would have known she'd be there.

I don't see a reason to doubt Sarah either, but the whole thing seems funny to me; I can only wonder why he was there.

Also, I read that both Tim Castle and Nate Dykeman said that Dylan caught Tim in one of the vents he was hiding in, but chose not to shoot him. I'm not sure what to think of this, as the whole situation seems kind of strange to me. However we don't know what exactly they did while in the halls. Does anyone have any more information on this?

Also, does anyone know why the Hi Point wasn't used in Rampart range?

Screamingophelia wrote:

thelmar wrote:

properground wrote:

The Sarah Leary interview (page 06774) brings up some interesting details: Leary said on 04-20-1999 at about 7:30 AM she walked into the school from the parking lot with Eric Harris. She said she walked up the steps located next to the cafeteria, ad that Harris was wearing jeans, a white t0shirt, and a dark flannel shirt. When she was greeted by Harris in the parking lot, when he gave her a hug and asked why she was all dressed up, to which she explained her activities between second and fourth period. Sara also said that Harris was not carrying any books nor had his typical black backpack on him. Once inside of the school Sara says that Eric turned towards the art hall and she went in the other direction.

All of this seems very, VERY interesting.

Also, has anyone read the Jennifer Harmon interview (Page 006482)? It has some interesting information about Nate Dykeman, and Pauline (TCM). If so, what are your thoughts? I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

I have no reason to doubt Sara Leary. If Eric was at the school at that time, it's anyone's guess what his purpose was.

With regard to Jen Harmon-
She was in the car with Terra Ogleman and Jen's boyfriend, John Reffel. According to Jen, when she made the U-turn to follow the detour that had been set up, her window was right beside Nate's and she heard Nate say, “I can’t believe they actually did this." What she doesn't say is that, according to Dykeman, pg. 10710, as he was returning to the school after lunch he pulled  up alongside Harmon and asked what was going on, Harmon is the one who told Nate that "2 kids in trench coats were shooting up the school."

I don't think its strange that once he heard that kids in trenchcoats were involved, that Nate would automatically put 2 and 2 together and think of Eric and Dylan. Tim Kastle said that Dykeman had a feeling that Eric and Dylan were up to something because they were both absent that day and they were never absent at the same time. Dykeman said this himself in his police statement. So that, coupled with hearing about 2 kids in trench coats, is likely why he said that he couldn't believe they actually did it. Lots of people had heard them make comments about blowing up the school and killing jocks. Absolutely no one (except the Brown's) actually thought they would really do anything.

Also, her statements about Pauline Colby are incorrect. Colby told multiple people (Tina Bernacchi, Lindsay Crandall, Kathy Frommer (the teacher), and Liza Campbell) that she wasn't feeling well after the DECCA banquet and that her dad had already scheduled her a doctor's appointment. She didn't just disappear like Harmon said. Moreover, Colby's older sister, Jennifer, was in the cafeteria at the time of the attack. Pauline would have known she'd be there.

To play devils advocate  we don’t know Nates tone of voice. With them joking about it so much and him possibly putting two and together. His tone could have been shock, sadness etc... I can’t believe you did this could have a lot of different meanings

Dykeman knew about Dylan purchasing a gun. Of course his immediate reaction would be to think it was Eric and Dylan. Kids in trenchcoats with guns shooting up the school could only be so many people. I take it as disbelief. I think he truly didn't know the extent of what Dylan and Eric were going to do. As said before, maybe he helped make a few bombs or something along those lines. That would the only way he was involved, imo. I truly believe he did not know about the actual plans to shoot up the school.

properground wrote:

Also, I read that both Tim Castle and Nate Dykeman said that Dylan caught Tim in one of the vents he was hiding in, but chose not to shoot him. I'm not sure what to think of this, as the whole situation seems kind of strange to me. However we don't know what exactly they did while in the halls. Does anyone have any more information on this?

Kastle had climbed up into the ceiling to look for a safe way out of the school.
On 4-20 (p. 3416) he said it took him about 5 minutes to get from the teacher’s lounge bathroom area where he went up into the ceiling to the other side of the room. Once he got there, he looked back to the other side and “saw someone point a gun at me.”
On 4-27 (p. 3418) he said that as he reached the area of the west wall, “he looked back to the area over the bathroom in the kitchen area. As he did, he observed a subject in that area, whose head was just above the ceiling area. Kastle said that the subject was pointing what he believed was a shotgun at him.” Kastle said it was dark and he couldn’t see the person well but described the subject “as having shoulder-length dark hair.” He said that “the hair he described did not fit Klebold and nothing about what he observed of the subject led him to his conclusion that the subject could be Klebold,” but because he didn’t get shot he thought it must have been Dylan because the two were friends. He reiterates this on p. 3421.

As far as what they did in the halls, I don't know. The police put together this timeline of events, which includes their meanderings through the halls, but there are errors all through the entire timeline so I'd advise taking it with a grain or two of salt. If something doesn't fit what you've already learned, you're probably right and Jeffco wrong.
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Eric Veik was arrested in October 1999 for "threatening to finish what Eric and Dylan started" but I cant find any more info about it other than he was arrested on the 6 month anniversary of Columbine and his bail was $500,000.
Does anyone have more information on this?

sk92 wrote:

Eric Veik was arrested in October 1999 for "threatening to finish what Eric and Dylan started" but I cant find any more info about it other than he was arrested on the 6 month anniversary of Columbine and his bail was $500,000.
Does anyone have more information on this?

That whole case is under lock and key. So there is not a lot of info. He's doing well now though AFAIK

Screamingophelia wrote:

That whole case is under lock and key. So there is not a lot of info. He's doing well now though AFAIK

Thank you. I figured as much but thought I'd ask. I do hope he's doing well now.

After seeing the latest documentary they had a scene that was supposed to be in Dylan’s room. And it got me thinking. I remember that someone had mentioned that he had one red wall (or was it red shutters?) but then I think Sue said he had one black wall. But didn’t Nate or Devon say he wanted to paint each one a different color?

where did the information that they wanted to plant the bombs to take out the pillars so the ceiling collapses come from ? in the video footage they clearly plant the bombs away from any pillars

How can you tell that from the footage? They weren't clearly away from the pillars. They were at tables QQ and PP as I recall, which means each is between 2 pillars. Also, as I recall, when planning and drawing the cafeteria, they have the places marked right by the pillars.

Further, they said were gonna blow the library and the school up while they were in the library, and the only bombs capable of doing that were below them in the cafeteria.

Does anybody think they were inspired to start shooting on the stairs from Hangar, E1M1, Doom's original first level on Knee Deep in the Dead?

cakeman wrote:

Does anybody think they were inspired to start shooting on the stairs from Hangar, E1M1, Doom's original first level on Knee Deep in the Dead?

Holy crap, I never even thought of it.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Does anybody think they were inspired to start shooting on the stairs from Hangar, E1M1, Doom's original first level on Knee Deep in the Dead?

Holy crap, I never even thought of it.

Pretty often one got hit by one of the shotgun guys up there. Also wonder if that motivated Eric in switching to the shotgun to shoot at cops from the library. Also think the manual mentions the shotgun is good for multiple enemies, and he would've had multiple cops rather than just Gardner by then.

If want another one, wonder if there was any thought of the maze in E1M2 in the 'wandering the halls' period.

cakeman wrote:

How can you tell that from the footage? They weren't clearly away from the pillars. They were at tables QQ and PP as I recall, which means each is between 2 pillars. Also, as I recall, when planning and drawing the cafeteria, they have the places marked right by the pillars.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] at 10:59:24 and 11:00:53 both plants seemingly out in the open, i dont buy the plant the bombs by the pillar theory

robertslay wrote:

cakeman wrote:

How can you tell that from the footage? They weren't clearly away from the pillars. They were at tables QQ and PP as I recall, which means each is between 2 pillars. Also, as I recall, when planning and drawing the cafeteria, they have the places marked right by the pillars.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]    at 10:59:24 and 11:00:53 both plants seemingly out in the open, i dont buy the plant the bombs by the pillar theory

I've seen the footage; I just don't see how you can tell they're out in the open. Assuming it's them, we don't even see them put them down, or at least I don't. Look at where tables QQ and PP are. Each one is between two of the four pillars. Indeed, is not that a pillar behind the trash can they scoot around? And how else to explain their expecting everyone to die in the library from the bomb, pretty clearly at 11:35 (see when they leave, or my avatar for the clock on that bomb)?  Here's an image with the tables the bomb were under marked with a red dot, and the pillars with a green dot:
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And here's Eric preliminary drawing, with stars by the pillars: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Also, does anybody know  the expected blast radius for the car bombs? Never seen that discussed, and it would help me understand whether it was more for first responders or students. It seems an article of faith that they were for first responders, which might well be true, but their position has seemed so good for taking out students that investigators think or at least say they were going to shoot from the cars, which I don't buy for a minute. It seems to me they expected a bomb made from one tank to be powerful enough to take out the cafeteria and/or the library, and the car bombs had two each. It's also probably too far to shoot and does nothing for the cops approaching from behind, but a large bomb may solve both issues. "interlocking bombing lanes" rather than "interlocking fire lanes" for fleeing students if you will. Though, if they were set for noon, presumably it would be after they were shot exiting and shot turning around, until they turn around again and go into the parking lot a second time.

Why are numerous students missing from the yearbook, such as Kyle, Isaiah, Bree etc?

Why did Dylan light the Malatov cocktail before committing suicide? What was the purpose? Also supposedly Eric’s grey matter/brain matter was under the fire on the tabletop so why did he hesitate, light it, and throw it before shooting himself?

Do you think the boys could have ever imagined that people 20 years into the future would still be discussing their actions and analyzing every small detail of their lives?

Why do “expert” researchers and psychologists downplay or ignore Eric’s behaviors and warning signs of suicide, especially during the initial analysis of his writings when making profiles of both boys?

true_crime wrote:

Why do “expert” researchers and psychologists downplay or ignore Eric’s behaviors and warning signs of suicide, especially during the initial analysis of his writings when making profiles of both boys?

Expert doesn't mean as much as we make it out to be.

Also why did you make three different posts instead of just one singular post?

true_crime wrote:

Do you think the boys could have ever imagined that people 20 years into the future would still be discussing their actions and analyzing every small detail of their lives?

they literally wanted to be nothing less than immortal because of their actions and also expected directors and writers to make something out of their story.

5PMSomewhere wrote:

Why are numerous students missing from the yearbook, such as Kyle, Isaiah, Bree etc?

I know that Kyle had only been there a few months so he would have missed picture day. I don't know when Bree started at Columbine as I've never seen the entire 1998 yearbook. I know she isn't in the 1997 yearbook, which would have been her freshman year. Isaiah was at Columbine for about 1.5 yrs. His senior class pic isn't in there and he's not mentioned in Camera Shy. I don't have the entire yearbook so I'm not able to see if he's included in the weight lifting club pic. He had stopped playing football his senior year.

true_crime wrote:

Why did Dylan light the Malatov cocktail before committing suicide? What was the purpose? Also supposedly Eric’s grey matter/brain matter was under the fire on the tabletop so why did he hesitate, light it, and throw it before shooting himself?

I don't think he did. I don't think we know which of them, Eric or Dylan, lit the final Molotov.

From the Columbine Report, pg. 8938
The fuse/wick on a Molotov cocktail type device is not designed to penetrate the container and ignite the contents. It is designed to ignite the product in its vapor form once dispersed. A container simply placed in a stationary location may not ignite at all due to the fuse burning itself out. It is reasonable for the fuse device to apply enough heat to the exterior of the container and cause it to fracture in that location. This condition is consistent with the fuel pattern and lack of heavy fire damage observed on the top of the table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Threaded pieces of the top of the glass bottle used to contain the fuel were found on the tabletop. The threaded pieces of glass were heavily charred indicating a pro-longed exposure to fire. The fuel pattern on the table was consistent with the determined bottle location. near the south edge. The glass and fuel directional patterns were inconsistent with a high-pressure content release, and no evidence that the bottle was thrown against the table was found.

This indicates that the final Molotov wasn't thrown and that it didn't immediately explode but instead, the wick burned for a while before breaking the top part of the bottle, allowing contents to leak out onto the table top and supposedly over Eric's brain matter (I say supposedly because I couldn't link the source at the moment. I remember reading there was tissue beneath the Molotov's contents but don't recall specifically that it was identified as Eric's tissue).

The fact that this tissue, if it was Eric's, was under the Molotov mixture doesn't mean that Dylan lit the Molotov after Eric died. Eric could have just as easily lit it, killed himself with Dylan following shortly after. The Molotov had to burn for a bit before the top of the bottle broke, so either boy could have lit it.

The idea of the last Molotov being a timer makes the most sense to me. It's not like it was going to burn the library down, and I can't think of a third possible reason for it.  Also, as thelmar says, it wasn't thrown, but placed on the table, and most suspect it was Dylan who placed it due to the brain matter underneath. Some also infer from that that Dylan hesitated, but I suspect not, and that the brain matter is only evidence of a few seconds difference between their suicides, if that. If true, this also probably means it isn't true that Dylan saw Eric's suicide or changed weapons because of it being gross or whatever. The positions of their bodies seem to me to suggest Dylan was on his knees at a right angle to Eric, and the exit wound side of his head bounced off his legs, rather than looking at him in the face.

The Time magazine article says it was a frappuccino bottle, fun (or not so fun) fact. Also supposedly they only had two Molotovs successfully light, and presumably the other one is the one Dylan tossed in the cafeteria, so I guess the storage closet fire they started was just with matches on towels, or a pipe bomb, or whatever.

On the prior page, 8937, it does not say it was Eric's DNA or anything like that, but it says it came from Eric and Dylan's direction, and presumably with Eric using the shotgun and making marks on the ceiling and so forth, people infer it was his brain matter that went that far.

cakeman wrote:

robertslay wrote:

cakeman wrote:

How can you tell that from the footage? They weren't clearly away from the pillars. They were at tables QQ and PP as I recall, which means each is between 2 pillars. Also, as I recall, when planning and drawing the cafeteria, they have the places marked right by the pillars.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]    at 10:59:24 and 11:00:53 both plants seemingly out in the open, i dont buy the plant the bombs by the pillar theory

I've seen the footage; I just don't see how you can tell they're out in the open. Assuming it's them, we don't even see them put them down, or at least I don't. Look at where tables QQ and PP are. Each one is between two of the four pillars. Indeed, is not that a pillar behind the trash can they scoot around? And how else to explain their expecting everyone to die in the library from the bomb, pretty clearly at 11:35 (see when they leave, or my avatar for the clock on that bomb)?  Here's an image with the tables the bomb were under marked with a red dot, and the pillars with a green dot:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

with all do respect because you clearly know tons but i dont know how you dont or anyone else doesnt see it, as well as the top comment on youtube saying "wow, so obvious its them, damn".  i think they planted where there were no students in the direct vicinity, dont think theyre going to set a bomb two feet where people were sitting because pillar.  not the biggest detail but the highlighted video seems pretty conclusive imo.

the video if anyone wants to chime in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

robertslay wrote:

cakeman wrote:

robertslay wrote:

cakeman wrote:

How can you tell that from the footage? They weren't clearly away from the pillars. They were at tables QQ and PP as I recall, which means each is between 2 pillars. Also, as I recall, when planning and drawing the cafeteria, they have the places marked right by the pillars.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]    at 10:59:24 and 11:00:53 both plants seemingly out in the open, i dont buy the plant the bombs by the pillar theory

I've seen the footage; I just don't see how you can tell they're out in the open. Assuming it's them, we don't even see them put them down, or at least I don't. Look at where tables QQ and PP are. Each one is between two of the four pillars. Indeed, is not that a pillar behind the trash can they scoot around? And how else to explain their expecting everyone to die in the library from the bomb, pretty clearly at 11:35 (see when they leave, or my avatar for the clock on that bomb)?  Here's an image with the tables the bomb were under marked with a red dot, and the pillars with a green dot:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

with all do respect because you clearly know tons but i dont know how you dont or anyone else doesnt see it, as well as the top comment on youtube saying "wow, so obvious its them, damn".  i think they planted where there were no students in the direct vicinity, dont think theyre going to set a bomb two feet where people were sitting because pillar.  not the biggest detail but the highlighted video seems pretty conclusive imo.

the video if anyone wants to chime in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

No offense taken, but I didn't dispute whether it was them; I asked how you can tell the bombs weren't between the pillars from that. Also pretty clear with the drawings/diagrams, and their comments in the library. Not sure why you think there were no students around them either.

QuestionMark wrote:

Why do “expert” researchers and psychologists downplay or ignore Eric’s behaviors and warning signs of suicide, especially during the initial analysis of his writings when making profiles of both boys?

Expert doesn't mean as much as we make it out to be.

Also why did you make three different posts instead of just one singular post?

I apologize, I’m still fairly new to this thread. I use Topic’it on my iPhone; accessing the original website was very clumsy and not user friendly for my phone. I still do not know how to quote multiple responses into one post.

As for them wanting to be immortal, I get that; it’s very obvious from their writings and the Basement Tapes. But 20 years? No other singular shooting has been analyzed and discussed for that long of a time span. Columbine is also the only shooting that when someone says the name of the school the shooting is the first thing that comes to mind.

[quote="thelmar"]Why are numerous students missing from the yearbook, such as Kyle, Isaiah, Bree etc?

I know that Kyle had only been there a few months so he would have missed picture day. I don't know when Bree started at Columbine as I've never seen the entire 1998 yearbook. I know she isn't in the 1997 yearbook, which would have been her freshman year. Isaiah was at Columbine for about 1.5 yrs. His senior class pic isn't in there and he's not mentioned in Camera Shy. I don't have the entire yearbook so I'm not able to see if he's included in the weight lifting club pic. He had stopped playing football his senior year.

true_crime wrote:

Why did Dylan light the Malatov cocktail before committing suicide? What was the purpose? Also supposedly Eric’s grey matter/brain matter was under the fire on the tabletop so why did he hesitate, light it, and throw it before shooting himself?
I don't think he did. I don't think we know which of them, Eric or Dylan, lit the final Molotov.

From the Columbine Report, pg. 8938
The fuse/wick on a Molotov cocktail type device is not designed to penetrate the container and ignite the contents. It is designed to ignite the product in its vapor form once dispersed. A container simply placed in a stationary location may not ignite at all due to the fuse burning itself out. It is reasonable for the fuse device to apply enough heat to the exterior of the container and cause it to fracture in that location. This condition is consistent with the fuel pattern and lack of heavy fire damage observed on the top of the table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Threaded pieces of the top of the glass bottle used to contain the fuel were found on the tabletop. The threaded pieces of glass were heavily charred indicating a pro-longed exposure to fire. The fuel pattern on the table was consistent with the determined bottle location. near the south edge. The glass and fuel directional patterns were inconsistent with a high-pressure content release, and no evidence that the bottle was thrown against the table was found.

This indicates that the final Molotov wasn't thrown and that it didn't immediately explode but instead, the wick burned for a while before breaking the top part of the bottle, allowing contents to leak out onto the table top and supposedly over Eric's brain matter (I say supposedly because I couldn't link the source at the moment. I remember reading there was tissue beneath the Molotov's contents but don't recall specifically that it was identified as Eric's tissue).

The fact that this tissue, if it was Eric's, was under the Molotov mixture doesn't mean that Dylan lit the Molotov after Eric died. Eric could have just as easily lit it, killed himself with Dylan following shortly after. The Molotov had to burn for a bit before the top of the bottle broke, so either boy could have lit it.

Thanks for this information Thelmar. I wasn’t sure where to find it! It just seems odd because it didn’t have a clear reason for being lit in the first place. The only sensible reason would be as sort of a timer. Perhaps it’s just something as simple as they wanted to cause more damage and go out with a bang, so to speak.

If we know that the brain matter came from the direction of the boys, then I think it’s safe to say with high certainty that it was Eric’s. This isn’t because of the timing, but instead the method and results of his suicide. His was more damaging/destructive; after all, the entire top of his head/skull was shot off.

Another question, I think someone mentioned it on here but didn’t give a lot of information. Is it true that no one cake forward to claim Eric’s remains and/or personal effects he had on him on April 20? If so, that breaks my heart.

[quote="thelmar"]Why are numerous students missing from the yearbook, such as Kyle, Isaiah, Bree etc?

I know that Kyle had only been there a few months so he would have missed picture day. I don't know when Bree started at Columbine as I've never seen the entire 1998 yearbook. I know she isn't in the 1997 yearbook, which would have been her freshman year. Isaiah was at Columbine for about 1.5 yrs. His senior class pic isn't in there and he's not mentioned in Camera Shy. I don't have the entire yearbook so I'm not able to see if he's included in the weight lifting club pic. He had stopped playing football his senior year.

true_crime wrote:

Why did Dylan light the Malatov cocktail before committing suicide? What was the purpose? Also supposedly Eric’s grey matter/brain matter was under the fire on the tabletop so why did he hesitate, light it, and throw it before shooting himself?
I don't think he did. I don't think we know which of them, Eric or Dylan, lit the final Molotov.

From the Columbine Report, pg. 8938
The fuse/wick on a Molotov cocktail type device is not designed to penetrate the container and ignite the contents. It is designed to ignite the product in its vapor form once dispersed. A container simply placed in a stationary location may not ignite at all due to the fuse burning itself out. It is reasonable for the fuse device to apply enough heat to the exterior of the container and cause it to fracture in that location. This condition is consistent with the fuel pattern and lack of heavy fire damage observed on the top of the table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Threaded pieces of the top of the glass bottle used to contain the fuel were found on the tabletop. The threaded pieces of glass were heavily charred indicating a pro-longed exposure to fire. The fuel pattern on the table was consistent with the determined bottle location. near the south edge. The glass and fuel directional patterns were inconsistent with a high-pressure content release, and no evidence that the bottle was thrown against the table was found.

This indicates that the final Molotov wasn't thrown and that it didn't immediately explode but instead, the wick burned for a while before breaking the top part of the bottle, allowing contents to leak out onto the table top and supposedly over Eric's brain matter (I say supposedly because I couldn't link the source at the moment. I remember reading there was tissue beneath the Molotov's contents but don't recall specifically that it was identified as Eric's tissue).

The fact that this tissue, if it was Eric's, was under the Molotov mixture doesn't mean that Dylan lit the Molotov after Eric died. Eric could have just as easily lit it, killed himself with Dylan following shortly after. The Molotov had to burn for a bit before the top of the bottle broke, so either boy could have lit it.

Thanks for this information Thelmar. I wasn’t sure where to find it! It just seems odd because it didn’t have a clear reason for being lit in the first place. The only sensible reason would be as sort of a timer. Perhaps it’s just something as simple as they wanted to cause more damage and go out with a bang, so to speak.

If we know that the brain matter came from the direction of the boys, then I think it’s safe to say with high certainty that it was Eric’s. This isn’t because of the timing, but instead the method and results of his suicide. His was more damaging/destructive; after all, the entire top of his head/skull was shot off.

Another question, I think someone mentioned it on here but didn’t give a lot of information. Is it true that no one cake forward to claim Eric’s remains and/or personal effects he had on him on April 20? If so, that breaks my heart.

cakeman wrote:

The idea of the last Molotov being a timer makes the most sense to me. It's not like it was going to burn the library down, and I can't think of a third possible reason for it.  Also, as thelmar says, it wasn't thrown, but placed on the table, and most suspect it was Dylan who placed it due to the brain matter underneath. Some also infer from that that Dylan hesitated, but I suspect not, and that the brain matter is only evidence of a few seconds difference between their suicides, if that. If true, this also probably means it isn't true that Dylan saw Eric's suicide or changed weapons because of it being gross or whatever. The positions of their bodies seem to me to suggest Dylan was on his knees at a right angle to Eric, and the exit wound side of his head bounced off his legs, rather than looking at him in the face.

The Time magazine article says it was a frappuccino bottle, fun (or not so fun) fact. Also supposedly they only had two Molotovs successfully light, and presumably the other one is the one Dylan tossed in the cafeteria, so I guess the storage closet fire they started was just with matches on towels, or a pipe bomb, or whatever.

On the prior page, 8937, it does not say it was Eric's DNA or anything like that, but it says it came from Eric and Dylan's direction, and presumably with Eric using the shotgun and making marks on the ceiling and so forth, people infer it was his brain matter that went that far.

Given that it is likely that the only other successful Molotov was the one thrown by Dylan in the cafeteria, we could infer that he was the one to light the Molotov in the library. However, I agree that this doesn't necessarily mean anything about the suicides and who shot themselves first. I think given the way Dylan's body was found resting partly on top of Eric's legs that we could guess that Dylan killed himself after Eric. (I can't recall now why we think this, something about Dylan's blood being on Eric's clothes maybe?) But I don't think there was any hesitation. He was clearly the more suicidal of the two. It's what he wanted. I agree with you that there was only a few seconds difference between the suicides, if that. I think it's reasonable to assume that Eric went first and then Dylan immediately followed within a matter of seconds (milliseconds maybe). I've seen people speculate that since Dylan didn't die immediately after shooting himself he rolled around onto the final resting position atop of Eric's legs. That's entirely possible, as well.

It would be interesting to know the positions the bodies were originally found in before being moved around by LE to search them for explosives. Though, I don't suspect they really moved the bodies too much from their original positions. Does anyone know if photos were taken before they were moved or only after?

hvernon wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The idea of the last Molotov being a timer makes the most sense to me. It's not like it was going to burn the library down, and I can't think of a third possible reason for it.  Also, as thelmar says, it wasn't thrown, but placed on the table, and most suspect it was Dylan who placed it due to the brain matter underneath. Some also infer from that that Dylan hesitated, but I suspect not, and that the brain matter is only evidence of a few seconds difference between their suicides, if that. If true, this also probably means it isn't true that Dylan saw Eric's suicide or changed weapons because of it being gross or whatever. The positions of their bodies seem to me to suggest Dylan was on his knees at a right angle to Eric, and the exit wound side of his head bounced off his legs, rather than looking at him in the face.

The Time magazine article says it was a frappuccino bottle, fun (or not so fun) fact. Also supposedly they only had two Molotovs successfully light, and presumably the other one is the one Dylan tossed in the cafeteria, so I guess the storage closet fire they started was just with matches on towels, or a pipe bomb, or whatever.

On the prior page, 8937, it does not say it was Eric's DNA or anything like that, but it says it came from Eric and Dylan's direction, and presumably with Eric using the shotgun and making marks on the ceiling and so forth, people infer it was his brain matter that went that far.

Given that it is likely that the only other successful Molotov was the one thrown by Dylan in the cafeteria, we could infer that he was the one to light the Molotov in the library. However, I agree that this doesn't necessarily mean anything about the suicides and who shot themselves first. I think given the way Dylan's body was found resting partly on top of Eric's legs that we could guess that Dylan killed himself after Eric. (I can't recall now why we think this, something about Dylan's blood being on Eric's clothes maybe?) But I don't think there was any hesitation. He was clearly the more suicidal of the two. It's what he wanted. I agree with you that there was only a few seconds difference between the suicides, if that. I think it's reasonable to assume that Eric went first and then Dylan immediately followed within a matter of seconds (milliseconds maybe). I've seen people speculate that since Dylan didn't die immediately after shooting himself he rolled around onto the final resting position atop of Eric's legs. That's entirely possible, as well.

It would be interesting to know the positions the bodies were originally found in before being moved around by LE to search them for explosives. Though, I don't suspect they really moved the bodies too much from their original positions. Does anyone know if photos were taken before they were moved or only after?

Yes, those are good points too. I think the idea that they were moved around much is something of a meme. For example, note the large pool of blood under Dylan, suggesting that's where he died. And yes the blood on Eric's leg is from Dylan's head wound. Dylan's hat is also touching Eric's leg. and I also believe there's a mark on Dylan's arm matching Eric's shoe or something like that. So it seems to me Dylan was on his knees, at a right angle to Eric, then the force of the gun shot had him fall sideways, in the direction of the bullet, then he bounced off Eric's leg a little and rolled onto his back, where he bled and died.