The small question thread Part 2.

I agree, they’d be on even playing fields too.

What part on the 11k does it show that Dylan’s hard drive was destroyed?

thelmar wrote:

I think Wayne and Kathy were keeping a close eye on him;

I believe you are correct, according to the dialog between the Harris's and Mauser's I read, Kathy and Wayne did keep an annoying watch on Eric, more so than Sue or Tom did on Dylan after the van break in and subsequent criminal troubles.

Now I posted before on the bomb testing and I am still dumbfounded on the fact they never tested the propane bombs with timers. The entire concept of NBK was a bombing, blowing up the school. Eric tested different batches of pipe bombs and CO2 'crickets' bombs but didn't bother to make sure the main bombs would work? Weird

So I watched again since a significant amount of time had gone by, Hitman for Hire. There was a point in the video where one of the 'geeks' suggested using bombs where Eric said it was too messy but he'd use his "AEB-10". I assume this was a faux pas on his part as I think he meant AB-10. So I wonder when was Hitman for Hire made in relation to the acquisition of the Intratec Tec-9DC? Was it made before the Tec-9? Because the AB-10 is "after ban" version of the Tec-9 made by the same company. So was Eric scoping for one of those ahead of time? or was that a unintentional hint that he and Dylan had already acquired their arsenal?

On a side note, as much as a piece of junk a Tec-9 Jam-o-matic really is, that gun fetches a hefty price on gun sites. I priced them today out of curiosity since it's no longer made and they're going for 800-900 dollars. Admittedly I am interested in owning one for the simple fact it's no longer made. Hi Points are still made (although not the planet of the apes version had).

[quote="Imperator"]

thelmar wrote:

 So I wonder when was Hitman for Hire made in relation to the acquisition of the Intratec Tec-9DC?   Was it made before the Tec-9?  Because the AB-10 is "after ban" version of the Tec-9 made by the same company.  So was Eric scoping for one of those ahead of time?  or was that a unintentional hint that he and Dylan had already acquired their arsenal?  

The Hitmen For Hire video was filmed December 7- 9, 1998
According to Phil Duran, he was approached by Eric and Dylan with a request for him to purchase guns for them. They did not specify what type. He refused but indicated that Manes had a TEC-9 that he might be interested in selling.
When Eric and Dylan met Manes at the January gun show, they asked about his TEC-9 and according to Manes he showed them other TEC-9's that were at the show so they could see what the gun was like. Dylan purchased the TEC-9 from Mark Manes on January 23, 1999.
Since they didn't ask Duran specifically for a TEC-9 and Manes felt the need to show them TEC-9s at the gun show, it's not likely they were hunting for this gun, in particular.

Interesting but hard to imagine they weren't when Eric mentions the AB-10 several times. It's from the Doom novels. Arlene, for whom he named his shotgun, uses it. It seemed to be Eric's favorite gun even, and a "machine pistol" was the closest thing to Doom's ol' painless gatling gun, to switch to the rapid fire from the stopping power of a shotgun.

On December 3, 98, he wrote “We actually may have a chance to get some machine pistols thanks to the Brady bill. If we can save up about 200$ real quick and find someone who is 21+ we can go to the next gun show and find a private dealer and buy ourselves some bad-ass AB-10 machine pistols. Clips for those things can get really fucking big too.”

So, emphatic yes he was scoping for one ahead of time. Yes it's like they were hunting for that gun in particular.

Quote :

It's from the Doom novels.

That might explain why he uses the term AB-10 or AEB-10 in Hitman for Hire.

As to them scoring one, not sure if Eric knew the Tec 9 and AB-10 were the same thing. Even more interesting considering Eric appeared to be the greater of the two Doom enthusiasts that he didn't swap Dylan for the Tec 9. As you mention Arlene from the Doom novels used one as a main gun and Eric's shotgun was named after Arlene that Eric chose to stick with that carbine. I never read the Doom novels, never cared for the game so I had to google it.

[quote="Imperator"]

thelmar wrote:

Now I posted before on the bomb testing and I am still dumbfounded on the fact they never tested the propane bombs with timers.  The entire concept of NBK was a bombing, blowing up the school.  Eric tested different batches of pipe bombs and CO2 'crickets' bombs but didn't bother to make sure the main bombs would work?  Weird

There is a theory that they did test the propane bombs before with the same clocks they used on the day off the shooting. However, the manufacturer of the clock changed the arms from metal to plastic. This article goes in detail over it. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It stated "Several reliable and credible sources told me the reason the propane bombs did not go off had to do with the clocks that were used as timers. The two killers bought one of the clocks to test and it worked to set off a test device. They later bought more of the same make and model of clock which they attached to the bombs they left in the cafeteria. But between the time they bought the first clock and the second batch, the manufacturer changed the hands from metal to plastic which did not complete the electrical circuit necessary to set off the bombs." I hope this answers your question.

Quote :

But that is only part of the story. Several reliable and credible sources told me the reason the propane bombs did not go off had to do with the clocks that were used as timers. The two killers bought one of the clocks to test and it worked to set off a test device. They later bought more of the same make and model of clock which they attached to the bombs they left in the cafeteria. But between the time they bought the first clock and the second batch, the manufacturer changed the hands from metal to plastic which did not complete the electrical circuit necessary to set off the bombs.

Imagine for a moment that the propane bombs had exploded, killing and wounding more than 400 high-school students. The political chaos would be massive. We would have to have licenses to buy propane; propane tank size limited to five pounds; background checks; waiting periods to buy alarm clocks; all clocks required to have plastic hands . . .

The material for this article came from the author’s latest book, Surviving a Mass Killer Rampage: When Seconds Count, Police Are Still Minutes Away.

Kinda have to be skeptical of that theory as this is the extent of that publication regarding why the bombs didn't go off. You'd think there would be citation. They bought the clocks and tested the propane bomb (yet no real evidence I have seen supports that) and then bought more of the same clocks at some point? which in that time frame (doesn't say what the time frame is) the manufacturer changed to plastic hands from metal, which didn't complete the circuit.
I suppose that is possible, I don't necessarily believe that. I am unsure how they even had them rigged up to begin with. If I understand correctly, Eric and or Dylan based their bomb making from the Anarchist cookbook. If that is the case and once being an owner of said cookbook, it's widely junk.
That theory sounds sorta good except it doesn't really explain it.

Imperator wrote:

As to them scoring one, not sure if Eric knew the Tec 9 and AB-10 were the same thing.

Well as noted he was looking for a private dealer to sell him one, so surely, he would've asked the dealer "is this an AB-10?".

Quote :

Well as noted he was looking for a private dealer to sell him one, so surely, he would've asked the dealer "is this an AB-10?"

Perhaps. We'll never know. Ultimately they ended up with a Tec 9 DC which is a preban gun that came standard with the 32 rnd Mag. There were some differences between the Tec 9 and Tec 9 DC as the DC is Designed for California. So I guess he got lucky there unfortunately.

Interesting however the Doom Novels would call it an AB-10 instead of the Tec 9. I understand the novels were written during the Ban era but the Tec 9 as I stated was the 'higher cap' mag although the AB-10 accepted the 32 rounders.

An incredibly unreal coincidence for him to just happen to get a TEC-9 by chance after gushing over the AB-10. Seems one is more likely to confuse them than to not know they are the same, as they are virtually identical.

Also, while the bit about the plastic timers is often said, it is hard to buy it. For one, the first diversion partly went off. Surely it had the same clock. I would rather see those sources than just be told  'Several reliable and credible sources".  Keeping that secret doesn't seem justified if you're telling us about how the devices work anyway. It just seems superficial for that to have been the issue.

Some have said they tested it with smaller, 1 pound propane canisters, rather than the 20-pounder, though I don't know how they know that, and they don't even purchase propane until pretty close to the day. If I were to guess, I would say they tested the clocks on pipe bombs or some such, but never tested with propane, since starting a big fire or something would obviously not be in their interest of keeping the plan secret. Eric speaks of their trying to master the art of time bombs.  

Pretty sure that at least with  the diversions and the car bombs, the clocks set off pipe bombs which set off the rest. As I understand, an aerosol canister and pipe bomb went off with the first diversion, but not the propane. I guess that could have been from the motion detection the Jeffco/CNN CD speaks of, but I doubt they would rely on motion detection for the first one, and that seems even more complicated than timers.

Quote :

An incredibly unreal coincidence

It may very well have been. Pg 8215 11K Doc, Philip Duran says the boys had asked guns on acquiring guns
Pg 8255-8257 Phil Duran also stated that E&D had asked 2-3 times if he would purchase guns.

Paragraph 2 pg8255
"Duran stated he had been approached by Klebold and Harris to purchase them guns on 2 or 3 occasions. Duran stated that he told them he would not purchase guns for them because he did not want his name on any paperwork for their purchase. Duran stated that he had been approached on 1 occasion to purchase ammunition but had not purchased any for them."

Presumably after being asked several times Duran revealed he had a friend who may sell his Tec-9 and gave them Manes' number.

Quote :

Also, while the bit about the plastic timers is often said, it is hard to buy it.

On this we agree. I can't speak to how often it is said however the website [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] quoted takes excerpts from a book and concur would rather lay my eyes on those sources then rely on the 'several reliable and credible sources' routine. Perhaps that is in the book Surviving a Mass Killer Rampage: When Seconds Count, Police Are Still Minutes Away.

I don't think it very well may have been other than in the sense of "logically possible" like there's no contradiction in jumping a trillion feet in the air. That he said guns doesn't mean AB-10s weren't on their mind, when his own journal says it was, and they would be smart to slow-play any acquiring of guns for obvious reasons. 

At least it seems to me, you will miss several aspects of the massacre without a working knowledge of Doom and other similar 90s FPS games. It seems all their guns came from Doom. So, it would also be absurd for the TEC-9 to be the exception when the AB-10 is in the Doom novels. It's not a coincidence that Eric had Doom 1's pump action shotgun, and Dylan had Doom 2's double barrel sawn off super shotgun. Not a coincidence they each carried two guns, one a shotgun, and the other with 9mm and quicker fire, and switched between them; that's all "straight out of Doom". The carbine seems likely to be the take on what the Doom zombies carry, the first enemy, for a longer range weapon. 

It's perhaps odd as a singular fact, by itself, that Dylan has the TEC-9 when Eric is the one gushing over the AB-10 - but it's ten times less absurd than them getting a TEC-9 by chance, and it seems there are several avenues to take to explain it given the massacre as a whole. 

One, if Dylan was the mastermind, it makes sense for him to get what they thought were the better weapons due to the Doom universe. The super shotgun deals more damage, hence it's super. 

Two, and less fancifully, they may have had a tactical reason. If you believe they were going to shoot at people fleeing into the parking lot, and rightly abandon the idea they ever planned to shoot from the parking lot, then Dylan is the only who could have done so, as he descended the stairs. He also only fired three times with the TEC-9. While it probably did jam, as he abandoned a magazine outside, it seemed to work once he replaced it. He could have been saving ammo for those fleeing into the parking lot. It seems the best gun to use for that; the closest thing to Doom's chaingun they could have had. I don't think "Eric told him to check on the bombs" or something can be sustained. 

And with Eric staying up on the stairs, not sure what he could have contributed to people fleeing into the parking lot - unless, of course, he was to use the range of his carbine and the elevation to protect Dylan's back from police. It's significant that whenever they shot at police that day, it was Eric doing it. He even said his sense of natural selection would everybody in an Ultimate Doom game, having to survive a shootout. 

Three, Eric already had two guns from the gun show in November, while Dylan was still stuck with one. While he writes of getting two AB-10s, perhaps funds and symmetry dictated one more for Dylan.

Quote :

but it's ten times less absurd than them getting a TEC-9 by chance

There is nothing absurd about it in fact by all evidence it was a fortuitous coincidence. Additionally there is nothing to indicate through Phil Duran that Eric or Dylan asked specifically for an AB-10 (Tec-9). Mark Manes owned his for about a year. Phil knew Mark for 7 years. E & D asked several times for Phil to buy guns. You'd think if they were asking about buying a gun, they'd be specific about buying an AB-10 and Phil would have been specific himself to point that fact out in a witness statement. I would think that would be a pretty big fucking detail to miss.

Quote :

One, if Dylan was the mastermind, it makes sense for him to get what they thought were the better weapons due to the Doom universe.

I don't think Dylan cared either way, he just wanted guns to complete the ensemble. I doubt Eric saw himself as a follower and I doubt Dylan looked at himself as a mastermind. I don't know how much of the Doomverse was planned down to that detail. There was no pistol or chainsaw used or even sought for that matter. At least nothing written to suggest that. To be fair, DOOM used pretty generic weaponry in the game. While they did obtain those generic weapons and there certainly appears to be a Doom theme behind their judgement day, reading Robyn Anderson's statements, there was shopping around on the day they bought their guns despite a possibility that E & D already scoped the gun show a day before (per Robyn). I suspect Eric knew which was the better gun. He took the pump over the double barrel. I think Eric was more Doom obsessed whereas Dylan fancied a Natural Born Killers sick fantasy and was likely ok with whatever firearm(s) he could procure. After all it was coined NBK and not 'Hell on Earth'.

While it may have been on Eric's mind to acquire weapons similar to his Doom fantasy, I don't know how much he actively pursued them.

Quote :

Two, and less fancifully, they may have had a tactical reason.

Eric would have been the only to think like that and I don't think he put a lot of thought into weapons tactics. None of his writings indicate the choice of weapons he sought were for tactical reasons. But if he did, Eric knew his carbine would certainly be of better use outside picking kids off fleeing from the building. If any of the two had a rudimentary understanding of firearms, it was Eric. Need proof, go watch the Rampart video. Dylan was fortunate while handling his shotgun was that he wasn't Naturally Selected. Eric might have had a basic grasp on ballistics and maybe why he chose that carbine. I think if Eric could obtain a different weapon for Dylan before the Tec 9, he likely would have but considering the clock was ticking down to NBK and the Tec 9 opportunity arose, beggars can't be choosers. Besides it played into Eric's Doom fantasy however I think he knew that Carbine was a better choice. In fact I think he knew Dylan got the shit end of the guns. A double barrel was slower to reload and had no tactical advantage over the pump. The pump which I believe was a Savage, likely held 6 shells (one in the chamber maybe) assuming the dowel for hunting was removed.

Yes, I get the point that he said gun and not AB-10. I addressed that. They also didn't say they were going to shoot people either. There were reasons to be cagey.  So, I reject that they'd be specific. And I gave what's absurd about it. He wrote about it. It would be the one gun in their arsenal having nothing to do with Doom, when Eric mentioned it before getting it, because of Doom.  That remains unaddressed. They also could have easily got a cheaper gun. Dylan had to pay 500 for it, directly contradicting "beggars cant be choosers"". It is lazy to merely point to the fact that they didn't say it as definitive. 

"There was no pistol or chainsaw used or even sought for that matter. " as silly as saying they didn't invent the BFG so their weapons weren't because of Doom. The pistol sucks in the game and most of the game you are switching between the shotgun or the chaingun. The fact that they had two guns, one a shotgun, and switched between them remains unaddressed. Not something seen in many other spree killings. Really easy answer that it was to be like Doom. Literally said his gun was from Doom. Very obviously were. And yeah Eric's probably more into Doom, but that leaves plenty of room to be into it and not as much as him. Dylan knew enough to do the Doom theme in Eric's yearbook. Sure, of course, NBK was another influence - but not for the guns; their guns aren't in NBK, they're in Doom.

"Eric would have been the only to think like that " Absurdly confident mind reading. And yeah I didn't cite his writings. The plan for what they were going to do had the bombs worked isn't in there.  That's a small part of the 11k. Same problem as the first point.

"Eric knew his carbine would certainly be of better use outside picking kids off fleeing from the building." Possible, but it doesn't follow from his knowing a little about guns that he was able to shoot through the building blocking his view of the cafeteria, and it sure isn't certain.

Quote :

And I gave what's absurd about it.

Yawn...Yeah, something to the effect, it's not your opinion so it's absurd.  I get it.  

Quote :

They also didn't say they were going to shoot people either.

This makes absolutely no sense.  They were general with gun buying request because if they were specific in their request it would foil their plans?  Fantasy at best.  Reject that all you want.  I don't really care to be honest.  

Quote :

Dylan had to pay 500 for it, directly contradicting "beggars cant be choosers"

Once again you miss the point.  I think intentionally too.  It had nothing to do with price and even more so the availability.  I said this "I think if Eric could obtain a different weapon for Dylan before the Tec 9, he likely would have but considering the clock was ticking down to NBK and the Tec 9 opportunity arose, beggars can't be choosers.".  So no, it simply does NOT contradict my statement.  

Quote :

as silly as saying they didn't invent the BFG so their weapons weren't because of Doom.

That's not what I was saying at all.  So I am uncertain why that comment is being made.  
"...and there certainly appears to be a Doom theme behind their judgement day" .   The shotguns initially obtained, while yes in Doom (generic guns) were merely convenient when purchased.  There is no indication that they were picked out ahead of time.  Again, fortuitous coincidence.  Then to suggest 'yeah, the pistol sucks in the game so it's switching between chainsaw and shotgun the whole game' and yet he bought a fucking hi point.  By your own fucking words, why no chainsaw?  So it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe why not find a 9mm handgun to complete the whole Doom ensemble?  Rhetorical question, we'll never truly know.  Maybe you will but I won't.  

Quote :

Absurdly confident mind reading.

Odd that when anyone has an opinion backed up facts yet you spout you're 'mind reading' while ironically blathering your tarot card readings, giving you greater insight as if it's the fucking Gospel.  
You argue semantics, you cherry pick my statements then twist them around.  Of the two individuals, Eric certainly did appear to have a better understanding of guns and maybe tactics.  His writings are a key to his mindset which you seem to conveniently ignore and in a round about way, be dismissive of them.  


But if he did, (you forgot this part) "Eric knew his carbine would certainly be of better use outside picking kids off fleeing from the building." followed by:

If any of the two had a rudimentary understanding of firearms, it was Eric. Need proof, go watch the Rampart video


At this point you're pretentious at best, troll bait at worst.

I was looking at the death photos of E&D today and I noticed that he didn't have the TEC-9 in his hand but it looks like the carbine rifle. Did he shoot himself with the rifle or TEC-9?

Miasmom1028 wrote:

I was looking at the death photos of E&D today and I noticed that he didn't have the TEC-9 in his hand but it looks like the carbine rifle. Did he shoot himself with the rifle or TEC-9?

The TEC-9. The carbine lays alongside him but if you look closely, you can see his hand resting atop the butt of the TEC-9. The strap that extends from his chest was attached to the TEC-9; follow the strap to the gun.

thelmar wrote:

Miasmom1028 wrote:

I was looking at the death photos of E&D today and I noticed that he didn't have the TEC-9 in his hand but it looks like the carbine rifle. Did he shoot himself with the rifle or TEC-9?

The TEC-9. The carbine lays alongside him but if you look closely, you can see his hand resting atop the butt of the TEC-9. The strap that extends from his chest was attached to the TEC-9; follow the strap to the gun.

Is it laying on his lower torso? It's kind of hard to tell since he has a black shirt.

Miasmom1028 wrote:

Is it laying on his lower torso? It's kind of hard to tell since he has a black shirt.

The gun? No. On his lower torso is his left hand wearing the glove without fingertips. See the strap that looks like it is coming out of the end of his left hand? That is connected to that thicker black strap going over his right shoulder. Follow the strap coming from the end of his left hand and traveling towards his right hand. At the end of that strap is the TEC-9 and Dylan's hand is kind of laying on top of it. Nothing is really discernible, just looks like something black to the left of his right hand.

Bear in mind too that the bodies had been moved by LEO to ensure they were no longer a threat.

Were the sharpshooters/snipers ever interviewed, and if so, is this in the 11k? They may not have been able to see the suicides, but they should have been able to see the murders. If so, why were they not taken out? Please look over me if this is a dumb question.

true_crime wrote:

Were the sharpshooters/snipers ever interviewed, and if so, is this in the 11k? They may not have been able to see the suicides, but they should have been able to see the murders. If so, why were they not taken out? Please look over me if this is a dumb question.

I'd have to defer to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] regarding where the sniper statements might be in the 11 k. I know most of the reports from officers are in the pg. 7500- 10000 range but I'm not familiar enough with the breakdown to know where this group of statements might be.
However, all of the killing in the library was finished by 11:35, that's only 16 minutes after the start of the attack. I don't know this definitively, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the police would have been able to get snipers on the rooftops that fast. They would have been up there at the time of the suicides, but I don't recall ever reading any statements from police saying they clearly witnessed movement by Eric and Dylan in the library and I definitely never read any claims of witnessing them killing themselves.

thelmar wrote:

Were the sharpshooters/snipers ever interviewed, and if so, is this in the 11k? They may not have been able to see the suicides, but they should have been able to see the murders. If so, why were they not taken out? Please look over me if this is a dumb question.

I'd have to defer to sororityalpha regarding where the sniper statements might be in the 11 k. I know most of the reports from officers are in the pg. 7500- 10000 range but I'm not familiar enough with the breakdown to know where this group of statements might be.
However, all of the killing in the library was finished by 11:35, that's only 16 minutes after the start of the attack. I don't know this definitively, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the police would have been able to get snipers on the rooftops that fast. They would have been up there at the time of the suicides, but I don't recall ever reading any statements from police saying they clearly witnessed movement by Eric and Dylan in the library and I definitely never read any claims of witnessing them killing themselves.

See, I would think that too, Thelmar. If they did see the boys, surely their order would have been to take them out. The reason why I asked this is because I’m fairly positive the sharpshooters were mentioned in the lawsuit from Dave Sanders’ family.

[quote="true_crime"]

thelmar wrote:

See, I would think that too, Thelmar. If they did see the boys, surely their order would have been to take them out. The reason why I asked this is because I’m fairly positive the sharpshooters were mentioned in the lawsuit from Dave Sanders’ family.

Yes, they were mentioned in the suit
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :

By no later than approximately 12:15 p.m., Harris and Klebold, known to the Command Defendants to be the only shooters in the school, committed suicide in the Library. C/O ¶¶ 5-6. The Command Defendants learned of the suicides no later than 12:30 p.m., C/O ¶¶ 6, 64, as their deaths were visible to police sharp-shooters posted on nearby rooftops using high-powered binoculars and telescopic rifles. Those officers were in direct communication with the Command Defendants by telephone and/or portable radio. See C/O ¶ 64.

But I don't recall reading anything from the officers in the 11k, so either I've forgotten it, this claim by the Sanders family is inaccurate (the lawsuit also says that Klebold shot Sanders, when it was Harris) or statements by the snipers were not part of the documents released in with the rest of the 11k, etc.

Miasmom1028 wrote:

I was looking at the death photos of E&D today and I noticed that he didn't have the TEC-9 in his hand but it looks like the carbine rifle. Did he shoot himself with the rifle or TEC-9?

The diagrams can be helpful here.  Google image search "eric and dylan suicide" or some such and you should get the diagrams.

Some will contend the police moved them and the guns around, but I don't know that that's true. The large pool of blood by Dylan's head suggests that's where he died, for one. It's probably enough that the gun would've fallen and bounced around after they shot themselves. As you can see on the diagram, the TEC-9 is under Dylan's leg.

cakeman wrote:

Miasmom1028 wrote:

I was looking at the death photos of E&D today and I noticed that he didn't have the TEC-9 in his hand but it looks like the carbine rifle. Did he shoot himself with the rifle or TEC-9?

The diagrams can be helpful here.  I assume those are ok to post.

Actually I think even the diagrams are verboten. IIRC the last time someone posted the diagram publicly on the board the post got deleted.

Fair enough, I removed it then. Though I swear I remember it being posted before for purposes of looking at the shell casings, etc. If nothing else, it shows the Tec-9's handle is facing the other way. The position of Dylan's hand seem to makes some think it's facing away from him.

Do the Bernalls still live right beside CHS? If so, that would have to be difficult.

Does anybody know how they knew the shooting began at 11:19?

Didn’t they compare all the separate cctv recordings, calls and witness statements to come to that conclusion?

Well I'm asking since I don't know of course. The CCTV didn't get them outside.  The CCTV inside had that 'tape change' and so isn't recording anything until 11:22, though people do seem to be reacting by then. Patty's phone call was 11:25 (I think she was shot first regardless, given e. g. Bree's statement, but 11:25 seems a while to get there from 11:20, maybe 5 mins to get kids to hide).  I'm not aware of any witnesses saying like "I looked at the clock" rather than estimating. So, I wonder why 11:19. It's so specific that I trust they have a reason.  My interpretation of the massacre assumes it's correct. But I've not seen a lot to suggest it.  Then there's curiosities like Rachel's receipt.  I've never heard something like for the suicides, where they have the detection of the smoke from that final Molotov cocktail.

I think that first bomb was set for 11:20, so I wonder if curiously knowing 11:19 shows they know that too.  I also wonder if it's wrong, and then of course I need to revise my understanding. Maybe they're right that they started shooting two minutes later (I don't think so, one minute early makes sense to me), but we should think 11:22, rather than 11:19. Lots of options without knowing the reasoning behind 11:19, and I confess I don't know.

The timers of bombs in the cafeteria were set to 11:17 AM.

And this is Brooks Brown's statement:
"At 11:19 AM, he heard the first gunshots after he had walked some distance away from the school, and informed the police via a neighbor's cell phone"

Onyx wrote:

The timers of bombs in the cafeteria were set to 11:17 AM.

And this is Brooks Brown's statement:
"At 11:19 AM, he heard the first gunshots after he had walked some distance away from the school, and informed the police via a neighbor's cell phone"

I know 11:17 is the orthodox story, but I don't buy it. The source for that seems to be Dylan's notes, not from a photo of the clocks (pfp) or bombs themselves or an investigative report or something, and those notes seem nothing to go by. Not even sure it makes sense to have two bombs set for the same time. Could just build one bomb the size of two then. Why go to the trouble of building two, and then lose the complexity of two by having them at the same time?  Also they clearly speak of a bomb still in play in the library, and I see no better reason for them to stop and leave to go to it than it failing then, not before. Rebecca Parker's statement notes they say "Oh, it didn't work." before leaving.  There also seem to be ambiguous statements from e. g. Cullen and Krabbe that those kind of clocks can only have the alarm set at five-minute intervals. 

Back to 11:19, I wonder whether that's inserted by them assuming the timeline for some other reason, but I guess that makes sense. Brooks watch (did he wear one) and memory of the first shots could be the source. Though that seems weird as it was far away and Brooks's story always seemed a little mysterious.  I know it says approximately 11:20 for when Patti decided to tell them to knock it off, and I believe that actually happened first. That was the best thing I had before considering Brooks.

If Dylan wrote that the bombs in the cafeteria would explode at 11:17, and the car ones at 11:18, I don’t know what we can trust for real other than their notes. I'm familiar about 5-min intervals, maybe they set them up at 11:20, but then it doesn’t make sense that the first shots were heard at 11:19. I guess they would have known in advance these clocks could not be set at 11:17/11:18, right?

They probably made two bombs to be sure at least one would explode.

When they mentioned bombs in their conversation in the library, I think they meant how they will try to detonate them with bullets, just as we see in the cafeteria footage.

Onyx wrote:

If Dylan wrote that the bombs in the cafeteria would explode at 11:17, and the car ones at 11:18, I don’t know what we can trust for real other than their notes. I'm familiar about 5-min intervals, maybe they set them up at 11:20, but then it doesn’t make sense that the first shots were heard at 11:19. I guess they would have known in advance these clocks could not be set at 11:17/11:18, right?

They probably made two bombs to be sure at least one would explode.

When they mentioned bombs in their conversation in the library, I think they meant how they will try to detonate them with bullets, just as we see in the cafeteria footage.

I didn't really want to get bogged down in my theory so much as just I'm curious how we are certain about 11:19 given the ramifications changing that would have to my theory. But I can't help my self to correct some of this: Nobody believes the car bombs were set to 11:18, and he wrote  also that they would be set for 11:16 in Eric's planner. And Eric wrote 11:15 for when the cafeteria was full. So on the contrary I would press that on pain of contradiction we cannot trust their notes. Why pick 17? Simply the facts should decide whether we care about the notes; the notes shouldn't decide the facts.

And Dylan wrote 11:09 for planting the bombs, but that's not even considered one of the options for when. 11:10 is when class let out. So 11:09 probably just means before class let out; and 11:18 means just after the bomb. Most believe the car bombs were supposed to go off after they were dead, and for example Cullen has one of them set to noon.  

Also, those same notes say "Go to outside hill, wait" (can't stress this enough). The whole reason to say two minute late at 11:19, rather than one minute early, is because supposedly they were going to shoot from their cars at 11:17 and made up to go to the hill on the spot, disproven very simply by showing he had already considered that idea. Same for setting the car bombs a minute after, that too seems to disprove the shoot from the parking lot theory, which is the only reason to believe all of this.

The one's in Eric's planner seem to say wait by cars, in their defense, but it just shows how contradictory this is, and that seems to me obviously not the plan. Makes sense to stand away from the bombs not in front of the cafeteria.  One also wonders whether Dylan meant the cafeteria as opposed to the car bombs when he said "When first bombs go off attack", or if he meant the first cafeteria bomb implying they werent set for the same time. Also they had reasons to be cagey about all of this. Wouldn't write more than you need to, and one could imagine not needing to write down the final version of the plan.

It makes perfect sense to start one minute early. That would explain why they couldn't abort. They want the west entrance and stairs clear before it started is a simple explanation. Also Patti was first if you believe Bree's statement, and most believe Bree's statement is the best one to trust. Bree watches Dylan outside because Patti came in the library, and describes the tossing of the pipe bomb that Richard saw, the shootings of Lance and Daniel, Dylan entering the cafeteria, etc. 

It's also consistent with  everything else, such as Patti telling them to "knock it off" not stop fleeing in terror that they are already murdering people. An authority figure came to tell them to knock it off, so they get started early, seems the most likely scenario. Dylan also says the massacre will last 15 minutes, which support the bombs being set 15 minutes apart, with the first at 11:20, the minute after they start, and the second at 11:35, the minute before they leave the library.  Makes perfect sense to me.  And my profile pic has the clock on the bomb and it just so happens to be set to the 35th minute on the 7. It could be a backup, but I don't think so. I think killing cops was a major part of the plan, and explains why they are shooting in a library that will explode anyway, as Eric told Bree. That also explains why cops thought it smart to stay outside. 

It is very clear to me they could not have meant shooting at the bombs later. They say everybody in the library is going to die, they knew everybody was gone that they hadn't shot to death when shooting at the bombs. They were very aware they would be out of there. Hence Dylan says he's going to let Evan live.  Reading the witness statements it is very obvious they meant while they were in the library. They told John to run for a reason. They said "Oh it didnt work" for a reason. They said everybody in the library was gonna die anyway for a reason.  They said the reason!

I think they return to the library to kill themselves and light a molotov for the same reason.  Basically Plan C ther of die in destroyed library, after committing to Plan B of shoot students in the library to draw in police and destroy it and die, after Plan A, to surround and enter the cafeteria to draw in police and destroy it and die, failed

With all that is written, the clock in your picture is maybe the best indication that they expected one of the bombs to explode at 11:35. It was only when it failed to detonate that they tried to induce an explosion on their own.

Btw, if my memory serves me well, the diversion bombs were set at 11:14, so it would have been a little too early for the bombs in the cafeteria to be set at 11:15. 11:20 would make more sense.

How much can we actually be sure that the clocks could really only work at 5-min intervals?

Onyx wrote:

With all that is written, the clock in your picture is maybe the best indication that they expected one of the bombs to explode at 11:35. It was only when it failed to detonate that they tried to induce an explosion on their own.

Btw, if my memory serves me well, the diversion bombs were set at 11:14, so it would have been a little too early for the bombs in the cafeteria to be set at 11:15. 11:20 would make more sense.

How much can we actually be sure that the clocks could really only work at 5-min intervals?

Yeah 11:14 is what they say. Perhaps it was 11:15 given the restriction to 5 min intervals, which I'm not certain of, that's just what some books say and seems weirdly contradictory and possible support for the above. That's not my main reason for thinking it though.

But they also say the diversion had motion detection which is a little weird. Isnt it one or the other? Unless it was one was timed and one was was trip bomb or whatever, so that responders were killed or injured. That seems like a true diversion. Again why two diversions if not this, etc. Maybe that also shows how the bombs were for police too.

Jen LaPlante mentions that both Eric and Dylan were in the bowling parking lot the morning of the shooting, and i've never seen anyone discuss this before.

Do we know why? Is it true? I thought they were all missing that morning, together with Morris.

23september wrote:

Jen LaPlante mentions that both Eric and Dylan were in the bowling parking lot the morning of the shooting, and i've never seen anyone discuss this before.

Do we know why? Is it true? I thought they were all missing that morning, together with Morris.

I know this was asked a couple months ago but the most likely reason is faulty memory. Theres no other reason for the two to actually be their on the day of the attack. Most people are not taking in accurate details of the day as they have no reason too. I assume a lot of people's brain meshed a lot of diffrent scatterd details into one day. Chris Morris himself claims to have gone to bowling class the day of the attack even though the score sheet claims other wise.

I also have some questions mostly regarding dates.

When was the date Eric lost Brooks's riding privilege (if this is known) and also the date Eric threw a piece of ice at Brooks's car?

Do we know the date Brooks's found out about Eric's website and when was it?

Date of rebel mission against Nick Buamgart's house?



Date of Eric's freshman homecoming?

Thank you very much.

I know this is in all likelihood the wrong thread, but for lack of a better place to post it:
So many people actively imitiated Eric during their own attacks (Pekka Eric Auvinen, Randy Stair, Alvaro Castillo, José Ángel Ramos, and the Medianeira shooter owned or wore natural selection shirts and Vladislav Roslyakov modelled his outfit off of Harris.) Has a single shooter since used a "wrath" shirt or shown a similar degree of idolization for Dylan?

dyonqqr wrote:

I know this is in all likelihood the wrong thread, but for lack of a better place to post it:
So many people actively imitiated Eric during their own attacks (Pekka Eric Auvinen, Randy Stair, Alvaro Castillo, José Ángel Ramos, and the Medianeira shooter owned or wore natural selection shirts and Vladislav Roslyakov modelled his outfit off of Harris.) Has a single shooter since used a "wrath" shirt or shown a similar degree of idolization for Dylan?

The closest one that I can think that show a similar degree of idolization for Dylan would be, I guess, Daniil Pul’kin (1 injured). I mean he wore a black tshirt with red letters saying "disappointment". I mean he showed also idolization to Vladislav Roslyakov, but I guess I thought at least that if Vlad was the Eric Harris of Russia, then maybe Daniil wanted to be the Dylan Klebold. Idk, I guess that is stupid and weird to think about. Also here is part of his Vk, with references with Dylan and Vlad, also I think the profile picture was modeled after Dylan, I guess:

Spoiler:

I wonder how the relationship between Eric and Dylans parents was? Especially after the van break-in. Did they ever wanted Dylan to stay away from Eric? Was Eric still allowed to visit Dylan at home? From what i read so far, they mostly hung out at Erics place.

nierenquetsche wrote:

I wonder how the relationship between Eric and Dylans parents was? Especially after the van break-in. Did they ever wanted Dylan to stay away from Eric? Was Eric still allowed to visit Dylan at home? From what i read so far, they mostly hung out at Erics place.

The Klebolds weren't the biggest fan of their friendship, but didn't actively discourage it. Sue said she would have made him break it off if she thought it was unhealthy, but she interpreted the van incident as just teenage stupidity. At the time of the shooting, if someone asked her who Dylan's best friend was, she would have answered someone other than Eric. She had positive relationships with all of Dylan's friends, but Eric was noticably more distant from her.
I got this from her book A Mother's Reckoning. Hope that answers your question.

dyonqqr wrote:

nierenquetsche wrote:

I wonder how the relationship between Eric and Dylans parents was? Especially after the van break-in. Did they ever wanted Dylan to stay away from Eric? Was Eric still allowed to visit Dylan at home? From what i read so far, they mostly hung out at Erics place.

The Klebolds weren't the biggest fan of their friendship, but didn't actively discourage it. Sue said she would have made him break it off if she thought it was unhealthy, but she interpreted the van incident as just teenage stupidity. At the time of the shooting, if someone asked her who Dylan's best friend was, she would have answered someone other than Eric. She had positive relationships with all of Dylan's friends, but Eric was noticably more distant from her.
I got this from her book A Mother's Reckoning. Hope that answers your question.

Thanks for the reply! I havent read her book yet, only skipped through it.

EDIT: Just reading the Diversion Files on Klebold. On page 3 it says, he wasnt allowed to spend time with Eric as punishment. I dont know if they really stoped seeing each other (for some time), but i doubt it.

dyonqqr wrote:

I know this is in all likelihood the wrong thread, but for lack of a better place to post it:
So many people actively imitiated Eric during their own attacks (Pekka Eric Auvinen, Randy Stair, Alvaro Castillo, José Ángel Ramos, and the Medianeira shooter owned or wore natural selection shirts and Vladislav Roslyakov modelled his outfit off of Harris.) Has a single shooter since used a "wrath" shirt or shown a similar degree of idolization for Dylan?

Good point that it tends to be either both of them or Eric.  Not a Wrath t shirt, but Dimitrios Pagourtzis  "style" seemed a bit more Dylan, such as the Soviet Union pin alongside the Iron Cross, and the shaggy mop.

I suppose one could argue the ones who wore a trench coat imitated Dylan. Arguably his "uniform" in the popular consciousness rather than the Wrath shirt.

Is there any evidence that Dylan had a website like Eric did? I remember hearing that he did but could never find any evidence that it existed.

lognifiiskurk wrote:

Is there any evidence that Dylan had a website like Eric did? I remember hearing that he did but could never find any evidence that it existed.

Not to my knowledge. Eric got in trouble for that website, but nobody ever found Dylan's website.

Which would maybe make sense if we assume that Brooks is saying the truth that it was Dylan who ratted-out Eric's website to Brooks. I guess maybe Dylan would anticipate that Brooks would cause a stir about the website, so Dylan per-emptively deleted his own website just to stay safe?

I saw in this article that John Stone, the JCSO Sheriff, faced a recall election in 2000 spearheaded by the Brown family. Is there anymore information on that circumstance?

Does anyone have any surviving news articles on the backlash and discrimination faced by goths post-Columbine? It feels like something I should be able to find a wealth of information on but most of my searches have turned up very little, at least in terms of direct anecdotes.