What subculture would you put Eric and Dylan in?

I feel like they're definitely not goth, even though that's what the media thought them to be initially. What do you guys think their most suitable subculture is?

They are certainly not goth. I'd put them in the typical outcast subculture. I'm not really sure I would put them in alternate. They didn't particularly dress the part for really any of the subcultures popular in the 90's imo.

Maybe a hybrid of sorts. They were into tech, but they did other things. Grunge was big in the 90's, but they don't seem to talk about it. Definitely not goth, definitely not preppy.

If it's anything like my high school experience not long after the fact, you were just the invisible outcast subculture if you were like them.

NeedaHaircut wrote:

Maybe a hybrid of sorts. They were into tech, but they did other things. Grunge was big in the 90's, but they don't seem to talk about it. Definitely not goth, definitely not preppy.

If it's anything like my high school experience not long after the fact, you were just the invisible outcast subculture if you were like them.

Now a days maybe it's better to be the "outcast" I would rather have a few friends than a whole bunch of assholes as my friends.

They were 4channers before 4chan was a thing.

QuestionMark wrote:

They were 4channers before 4chan was a thing.

Fucking this. Definitely /b/tards. Dylan seems like maybe an /x/ browser. Probably /r9k/ as well.

Incel.

lol wrote:

Incel.

Legitimate question, don't judge.
The literal definition of an incel is an involuntary celibate. People who would like to be having sex but are unable to find a willing partner. But by this definition, lots of people (men, women, trans folks; regardless of sexual preference) fall under this umbrella.

It was my understanding that "incel" as a subculture refers to people who are usually heterosexual males who feel entitled to sex (I guess just cause they're breathing) and they blame women (instead of themselves) for their inability to get laid. This incel subculture is openly misogynistic and endorses violence against those who are having sex.
Is this not correct? And if it is correct, how do Eric and Dylan fit into it?

"Who feel entitled" as if it's not natural to reproduce; and no it wouldn't be considered average to graduate high school as single virgins. Nor does it mean one is "endorsing violence"; that is the most absurd caricature. That's at the level of a cat lady learning about Elliott Rodger through the tv, on top of acting like Eric and Dylan didn't endorse violence. It just means what it says, wanting sex and being unable to have it. However, yes, not as some ideology of "endorsing", but as a matter of fact one can ignore at their peril, the sexual appetite is intimately connected with the impulse to aggression/violence/death. "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage." - Dylan

As to the question, goth is probably the closest, though I'd grant it was probably more like they befriended goths than were themselves a part of it. They dressed in black and shopped at Hot Topic even if they didn't wear face paint or  w/e

cakeman wrote:

"Who feel entitled" as if it's not natural to reproduce; and no it wouldn't be considered average to graduate high school as single virgins. Nor does it mean one is "endorsing violence"; that is the most absurd caricature. That's at the level of a cat lady learning about Elliott Rodger through the tv, on top of acting like Eric and Dylan didn't endorse violence. It just means what it says, wanting sex and being unable to have it. However, yes, not as some ideology of "endorsing", but as a matter of fact one can ignore at their peril, the sexual appetite is intimately connected with the impulse to aggression/violence/death. "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage." - Dylan

As to the question, goth is probably the closest, though I'd grant it was probably more like they befriended goths than were themselves a part of it. They dressed in black and shopped at Hot Topic even if they didn't wear face paint or  w/e

Would guys with bad social skills be considered an "incel" because they have a hard time talking to women and other people?

bradt93 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

"Who feel entitled" as if it's not natural to reproduce; and no it wouldn't be considered average to graduate high school as single virgins. Nor does it mean one is "endorsing violence"; that is the most absurd caricature. That's at the level of a cat lady learning about Elliott Rodger through the tv, on top of acting like Eric and Dylan didn't endorse violence. It just means what it says, wanting sex and being unable to have it. However, yes, not as some ideology of "endorsing", but as a matter of fact one can ignore at their peril, the sexual appetite is intimately connected with the impulse to aggression/violence/death. "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage." - Dylan

As to the question, goth is probably the closest, though I'd grant it was probably more like they befriended goths than were themselves a part of it. They dressed in black and shopped at Hot Topic even if they didn't wear face paint or  w/e

Would guys with bad social skills be considered an "incel" because they have a hard time talking to women and other people?

I don’t think so. I think InCel is a very specific person and a movement. A 16-year-old boy who can’t get A date and is shy is much different then a 27-year-old that treats women like crap and then expects sex from every girl that looks his way.


Say what you want, there’s no way I would call Eric and Dylan incels whatsoever. They were too young. And also Eric never expected anything from girls he just wanted them to like him so he just tried really hard. He was more of a try hard than anything

Eric and Dylan could have gotten a girlfriend, in my opinion. If I absolutely had to put them in a subculture, I'd classify them as outcasts, maybe? They had their own group of friends, so they weren't completely alone, but they also weren't popular (as everyone knows). They were just there and I think that explains their presence at Columbine.

HanShotFirst wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

They were 4channers before 4chan was a thing.

Fucking this. Definitely /b/tards. Dylan seems like maybe an /x/ browser. Probably /r9k/ as well.

I just realized we missed the obvious board choice of Eric the /k/ommando.

cakeman wrote:

"Who feel entitled" as if it's not natural to reproduce; and no it wouldn't be considered average to graduate high school as single virgins. Nor does it mean one is "endorsing violence"; that is the most absurd caricature. That's at the level of a cat lady learning about Elliott Rodger through the tv, on top of acting like Eric and Dylan didn't endorse violence. It just means what it says, wanting sex and being unable to have it. However, yes, not as some ideology of "endorsing", but as a matter of fact one can ignore at their peril, the sexual appetite is intimately connected with the impulse to aggression/violence/death. "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage." - Dylan

Thanks for not being judgemental  
Twisting my words around doesn't change the meaning. Reproduction as a biological imperative doesn't mean that every male gets to reproduce just because he wants to; this is true of humans and every other species in the animal kingdom. Competition for mates crosses all species lines, are humans supposed to be different? Entitlement means you think you're inherently deserving of something just because you're breathing. Sex isn't an entitlement, reproduction isn't an entitlement.  

I am not well versed in the incel subculture, thus the reason for my inquiry. Even though from what I know of it I don't think that E & D fit that bill, I didn't think I had enough knowledge of the subject to state this definitively. I still want to learn more because maybe I'm wrong. Your condescending reply gave me no usable information.

From articles I have read which discuss incels they touch on the Internet subculture of incel forums in which individuals who identify as incels collectively blame women for their lack of sex. Inconceivable that it might be because these guys are jerks or something, couldn't possibly be their fault no one will have them. They also talk about how these discussions can involve talk of retaliation for these perceived slights by women.
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And where did you find, in what I've written, that I believe Eric and Dylan didn't endorse violence? Let's see, you actually didn't, you just assumed it because I asked a simple question about incels and how it applies to Harris and Klebold and for some odd reason it made you irritated.

Finally, you are selling men very short if you think that it's understandable for guys who don't get laid to become aggressive and seek outlets for this aggression. Most men deal with sexual frustration without feeling the need to beat on or slaughter people; only the abnormal ones go on rampages.

Cakeman, you’ve been warned about the way you interact with other forum members. Everyone has their own experiences and the things your state are again your opinions you’re not backing any of them up with statistics or data. So they are your opinions. If you disagree with someone that’s fine. Stop being mean

I notice that in college it's at least a little more mature regarding "subcultures"

Cakeman is correct though. Incel means just that: Unable to get sex. That is literally the definition: Involuntarily celibate.

Anything else beyond that definition IMO is purely opinionated. And Eric and Dylan were 100% incel. They were struggling with women VERY early throughout their lives already. I honestly don't think Dylan would've found anyone after college. Life gets harder after high-school and college. If you're a shy guy who hasn't made your move by college, then you're pretty much shit out of luck. And since Eric was a fucking loon who also was a borderline stalker, I highly doubt he'd get girls as he got older too. Both of them would've been similar to Elliot Rodger, only they would've been much less vocal as the sheer embarrassment of unable to land a vagina would be too much for their tiny brains to bare.

They would've lashed their anger out on other things. But yeah, those two were definitely incel.

bradt93 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

"Who feel entitled" as if it's not natural to reproduce; and no it wouldn't be considered average to graduate high school as single virgins. Nor does it mean one is "endorsing violence"; that is the most absurd caricature. That's at the level of a cat lady learning about Elliott Rodger through the tv, on top of acting like Eric and Dylan didn't endorse violence. It just means what it says, wanting sex and being unable to have it. However, yes, not as some ideology of "endorsing", but as a matter of fact one can ignore at their peril, the sexual appetite is intimately connected with the impulse to aggression/violence/death. "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage." - Dylan

As to the question, goth is probably the closest, though I'd grant it was probably more like they befriended goths than were themselves a part of it. They dressed in black and shopped at Hot Topic even if they didn't wear face paint or  w/e

Would guys with bad social skills be considered an "incel" because they have a hard time talking to women and other people?

Yes.

Incel =/= hating women

I disagree.

Also you’re all putting current terminology and ideas to something in the past. It was a different time and it was a conservative area. You mean to tell me that EVERY high school student who graduates as a virgin has a horrible character flaw...it’s absurd

That’s a bad way to look at people.

You all actually think simply getting laid would have stopped the shooting?
It also doesn’t help when you make fun of kids not being able to have sex...you all seem to think in terms of movies and not real life.

And honestly when does Dylan talk about being upset that he can’t have sex. Never. He never talks about it in his writings. If you want to go by the evidence only we can say for the Dylsn, he didn’t care. Also you don’t know if Robyn and him didn’ make out at the very least. Like she’s going to write an op Ed about it

I dont think it is fair to say that had they lived they would have never gotten girls. I knew guys like them in my HS growing up and they are married now. Who is to say that if they had gotten past their petty childhood issues they couldn't have found someone?

I personally believe that any relationship they would have found would have been negative but that is an entirely different topic

Lizpuff wrote:

I dont think it is fair to say that had they lived they would have never gotten girls.  I knew guys like them in my HS growing up and they are married now.  Who is to say that if they had gotten past their petty childhood issues they couldn't have found someone?

I personally believe that any relationship they would have found would have been negative but that is an entirely different topic

This!

Most people don’t peak in HS and thank goodness HS is not the end all be all.

Lizpuff wrote:

I knew guys like them in my HS growing up and they are married now.

Unless you knew a couple of murderers in high school, no, no you did not know anyone like Eric and Dylan growing up.

QuestionMark wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I knew guys like them in my HS growing up and they are married now.

Unless you knew a couple of murderers in high school, no, no you did not know anyone like Eric and Dylan growing up.

Well if you want to go there, I worked with a guy that went and murdered his ex wife and children a few years back. He was on his third marriage....so yes I have known "murderers" that were married. Although I didnt go to HS with him

I think many of us can say in general that we knew kids like Eric and Dylan because of all the stories we’ve heard of them and there may be similarities between people we knew. It just always interest me and I know we’ve spoken about this before but people like Rocky and even to a lesser extent Chris and Zach who had their own anger issues... What was so inherently different about them that would make them never commit a murder like this? Actually go through with it yet Eric and Dylan did? Still one of the most fascinating things about the case to me.

I think we have all known guys in high school who did not do well with girls, but went on to get married and have families. It's not like if you don't get laid by graduation, you are an incel for life.

Let's just put it out there that if you don't lose your virginity by 18, you are going to be a virgin for life!!!!

Exactly [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I don’t understand why people think this.

And honestly if Eric was genuinely like Cullen describes or if Dylan had a really long term girlfriend he loved and they still ended up committing this massacre would it make it any better or worse? No.

I would hate to have peaked in high school and I would also hate for someome to demand we all be the exact person we were when we were 15. That’s pretty pathetic.

No one genuinely likes the 35-year-old who is like I don’t do much now but Man, when I scored the winning goal a the football game when I was 16 I was the man and I shagged the head cheerleader. I don’t want to talk to that guy. But far more people can relate to being an awkward 16-year-old who couldn’t get a date.

It’s just disconcerting how many people here think a 14-year-old Who hasn’t had sex is automatically an incel.

Lizpuff wrote:

Let's just put it out there that if you don't lose your virginity by 18, you are going to be a virgin for life!!!!  

I think at that point you might as well become a nun!!!

Screamingophelia wrote:

I think many of us can say in general that we knew kids like Eric and Dylan because of all the stories we’ve heard of them and there may be similarities between people we knew. It just always interest me and I know we’ve spoken about this before but people like Rocky and even to a lesser extent Chris and Zach who had their own anger issues... What was so inherently different about them that would make them never commit a murder like this? Actually go through with  it yet Eric and Dylan did? Still one of the most fascinating things about the case to me.

We knew kids that had only superficial similarities to Eric and Dylan. The murders are the big dividing line.

Not saying you're right or wrong here, just noting that the killings are what separates Eric and Dylan from like 99% of all people on the planet.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I think many of us can say in general that we knew kids like Eric and Dylan because of all the stories we’ve heard of them and there may be similarities between people we knew. It just always interest me and I know we’ve spoken about this before but people like Rocky and even to a lesser extent Chris and Zach who had their own anger issues... What was so inherently different about them that would make them never commit a murder like this? Actually go through with  it yet Eric and Dylan did? Still one of the most fascinating things about the case to me.

We knew kids that had only superficial similarities to Eric and Dylan. The murders are the big dividing line.

Not saying you're right or wrong here, just noting that the killings are what separates Eric and Dylan from like 99% of all people on the planet.

I agree

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I think many of us can say in general that we knew kids like Eric and Dylan because of all the stories we’ve heard of them and there may be similarities between people we knew. It just always interest me and I know we’ve spoken about this before but people like Rocky and even to a lesser extent Chris and Zach who had their own anger issues... What was so inherently different about them that would make them never commit a murder like this? Actually go through with  it yet Eric and Dylan did? Still one of the most fascinating things about the case to me.

We knew kids that had only superficial similarities to Eric and Dylan. The murders are the big dividing line.

Not saying you're right or wrong here, just noting that the killings are what separates Eric and Dylan from like 99% of all people on the planet.

I agree as well!

LadyStardust wrote:

I think we have all known guys in high school who  did not do well with girls, but went on to get married and have families. It's not like if you don't get laid by graduation, you are an incel for life.

As true as it is, I don't think Dylan felt that way. He seemed to think he had missed whatever chance he had and was already thinking about the afterlife being his only chance at love. Dylan needing something to force his hand into suicide, wishing to do something with his life before suicide even if something infamous, and wishing not to die alone I think are ten times more the motivation for the massacre than 'bullying'. It seems to me Dylan's journal mentioning NBK first and his main concern being unrequited love are simply facts which need to be explained.  He wrote "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage", not the bullied man strikes with absolute rage.  While it's certainly possible that Dylan was his own worst enemy and would never find a woman he could be satisfied in making a wife or girlfriend, it leaps off the page that that is what would have stopped him from being suicidal/homicidal. I don't think it was simply mental illness.

Also, incel is first of all a lack of sex but more than just a lack of sex, it's a lack of intimacy in general a la Harlow's monkeys. Elliott Rodger didn't want a prostitute, he wanted a girlfriend. And it's frankly disgusting to see people live up to the "men are disposable; there's a gazillion sperm for every one egg; 80% of women reproduce while 20% of men do "(idk the actual numbers). Nobody would ever say a woman expecting to get married some day shows how entitled she is. I'd say that only getting worse has a lot more to do with nothing changing since Columbine than gun laws or anti bullying campaigns.

The issue is then what causes incels. It's not something popular to say (good answers rarely are), but I think single mothers is probably the best answer, and also has a pretty good correlation with school shooters. Looking at Lanza. Though, I fully confess, that's not the case for Eric or Dylan or Rodger. Then again, Rodger hated his mother, and one has to wonder with Eric or Dylan. For instance, Sue still seems protective of Dylan, and one wonders how often Eric's dad was there with the military stuff, etc.

cakeman wrote:

LadyStardust wrote:

I think we have all known guys in high school who  did not do well with girls, but went on to get married and have families. It's not like if you don't get laid by graduation, you are an incel for life.

As true as it is, I don't think Dylan felt that way. He seemed to think he had missed whatever chance he had and was already thinking about the afterlife being his only chance at love. Dylan needing something to force his hand into suicide, wishing to do something with his life even if something infamous, and wishing not to die alone I think are ten times more the motivation for the massacre than 'bullying'. It seems to me Dylan's journal mentioning NBK first and his main concern being unrequited love are simply facts which need to be explained.  He wrote "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage", not the bullied man strikes with absolute rage.  While it's certainly possible that Dylan was his own worst enemy and would never find a woman he could be satisfied in making a wife or girlfriend, it leaps off the page that that is what would have stopped him from being suicidal/homicidal. I don't think it was simply mental illness.

Also, incel is first of all a lack of sex but more than just a lack of sex, it's a lack of intimacy in general a la Harlow's monkeys. Elliott Rodger didn't want a prostitute, he wanted a girlfriend. And it's frankly disgusting to see people live up to the "men are disposable; there's a gazillion sperm for every one egg; 80% of women reproduce while 20% of men do "(idk the actual numbers). Nobody would ever say a woman expecting to get married some day shows how entitled she is. I'd say that only getting worse has a lot more to do with nothing changing since Columbine than gun laws or anti bullying campaigns.

The issue is then what causes incels. It's not something popular to say (good answers rarely are), but I think single mothers is probably the best answer, and also has a pretty good correlation with school shooters. Looking at Lanza. Though, I fully confess, that's not the case for Eric or Dylan or Rodger. Then again, Rodger hated his mother, and one has to wonder with Eric or Dylan. For instance, Sue still seems protective of Dylan, and one wonders how often Eric's dad was there with the military stuff, etc.

I agree with what you have said here too. Dylan in other's eyes had not peaked in HS, however he felt he had and that is what mattered obv to him. I would say the same about Eric. Neither one of them saw a life beyond what they had going on at that very moment.

Lizpuff wrote:

cakeman wrote:

LadyStardust wrote:

I think we have all known guys in high school who  did not do well with girls, but went on to get married and have families. It's not like if you don't get laid by graduation, you are an incel for life.

As true as it is, I don't think Dylan felt that way. He seemed to think he had missed whatever chance he had and was already thinking about the afterlife being his only chance at love. Dylan needing something to force his hand into suicide, wishing to do something with his life even if something infamous, and wishing not to die alone I think are ten times more the motivation for the massacre than 'bullying'. It seems to me Dylan's journal mentioning NBK first and his main concern being unrequited love are simply facts which need to be explained.  He wrote "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage", not the bullied man strikes with absolute rage.  While it's certainly possible that Dylan was his own worst enemy and would never find a woman he could be satisfied in making a wife or girlfriend, it leaps off the page that that is what would have stopped him from being suicidal/homicidal. I don't think it was simply mental illness.

Also, incel is first of all a lack of sex but more than just a lack of sex, it's a lack of intimacy in general a la Harlow's monkeys. Elliott Rodger didn't want a prostitute, he wanted a girlfriend. And it's frankly disgusting to see people live up to the "men are disposable; there's a gazillion sperm for every one egg; 80% of women reproduce while 20% of men do "(idk the actual numbers). Nobody would ever say a woman expecting to get married some day shows how entitled she is. I'd say that only getting worse has a lot more to do with nothing changing since Columbine than gun laws or anti bullying campaigns.

The issue is then what causes incels. It's not something popular to say (good answers rarely are), but I think single mothers is probably the best answer, and also has a pretty good correlation with school shooters. Looking at Lanza. Though, I fully confess, that's not the case for Eric or Dylan or Rodger. Then again, Rodger hated his mother, and one has to wonder with Eric or Dylan. For instance, Sue still seems protective of Dylan, and one wonders how often Eric's dad was there with the military stuff, etc.

I agree with what you have said here too.  Dylan in other's eyes had not peaked in HS, however he felt he had and that is what mattered obv to him.  I would say the same about Eric.  Neither one of them saw a life beyond what they had going on at that very moment.

Yes, I think part of the allure of Columbine is the notion of peaking in high school, and dying at such a peak. Eric is tougher to pin a motive on than Dylan imo. I think it's quite possible it was basically the same. He mentions moving all the time ruining his social status in any one place. However, he seemed to have girlfriends at some level, even if nothing too serious (and even if one leaving him made him fake a suicide, supporting that it was the same).  If his journals are more serious than false bravado, and spring from his own mind rather than conversations with Dylan, he seems possibly to hate the notion of the 9-5 rat race and average conformist life after high school more than he does think he'll never be able to get a girlfriend.

[quote="Screamingophelia"]

Lizpuff wrote:

Let's just put it out there that if you don't lose your virginity by 18, you are going to be a virgin for life!!!!  

I think at that point you might as well become a nun!!! [/quote I'm 30 and never had sex yet, I guess there is no hope for me huh? I have bad social anxiety, I have a hard time talking to people in general. I've physically touched women like hugging and stuff, but nothing intimate.

We were being sarcastic.

bradt93 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Let's just put it out there that if you don't lose your virginity by 18, you are going to be a virgin for life!!!!  

I think at that point you might as well become a nun!!! [/quote I'm 30 and never had sex yet, I guess there is no hope for me huh? I have bad social anxiety, I have a hard time talking to people in general. I've physically touched women like hugging and stuff, but nothing intimate.

Nah I am sure there is still hope for you.

It doesn't matter what some of you believe. Incel is literally that definition...unable to attractive women. Hence the term "incel" aka involuntarily celibate. That is exactly what those two boys were...especially Dylan, and yes, it is very unheard of to not have a girlfriend even in high school back then. Very unheard of. You're fooling and deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Those two were incel, and died virgins. And I really doubt either of them would've lost it post-college either.

Incel=/=hating women are not interchangeable. That is like saying every guy who is lonely is a future mass murderer, because there have been some lonely guys who have committed murder. It's not interchangeable.

lol wrote:

It doesn't matter what some of you believe. Incel is literally that definition...unable to attractive women. Hence the term "incel" aka involuntarily celibate. That is exactly what those two boys were...especially Dylan, and yes, it is very unheard of to not have a girlfriend even in high school back then. Very unheard of. You're fooling and deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Those two were incel, and died virgins. And I really doubt either of them would've lost it post-college either.

Incel=/=hating women are not interchangeable. That is like saying every guy who is lonely is a future mass murderer, because there have been some lonely guys who have committed murder. It's not interchangeable.

Apparently if you have a disorder like I do which is aspergers, it must mean you're a "loser" and can't attract women in your eyes. I hate to tell you this, but that is ignorant thinking.

I am pretty sure Eric and Dylan would have been able to get laid at some point during college or after... I think you are exaggerating just a little bit.

I don't know why so many people are stuck on this, it kind of gives me pause.. it is almost as bad as the girls who put flower crowns on Eric.. kind of 2 sides of the same coin.

It's silly too to put todays labels on people who existed in the 90's. It is like the people that scream "Friends is problematic!!" umm...how? Maybe some media doesn't hold up or stand the test of time but it doesn't mean it wasn't good at the time.

It is also really sad to look down on kids that don't have sex.. "sorry Timmy I know you're 16 but since you are still a virgin you're not going to amount to anything, I don't care if you have a lot of friends and a 4.0" It is just...odd.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I am pretty sure Eric and Dylan would have been able to get laid at some point during college or after... I think you are exaggerating just a little bit.

I don't know why so many people are stuck on this, it kind of gives me pause.. it is almost as bad as the girls who put flower crowns on Eric.. kind of 2 sides of the same coin.

It's silly too to put todays labels on people who existed in the 90's. It is like the people that scream "Friends is problematic!!" umm...how? Maybe some media doesn't hold up or stand the test of time but it doesn't mean it wasn't good at the time.

It is also really sad to look down on kids that don't have sex.. "sorry Timmy I know you're 16 but since you are still a virgin you're not going to amount to anything, I don't care if you have a lot of friends and a 4.0" It is just...odd.

So I'm not a bad person for still being a virgin? thank you for that.

lol didn't even say virgins are losers who amount to nothing. He/she said they were incels, and that incel is a low status thing to be. Much odder to blame the messenger for that fact.

And no, it's nothing like applying made up PC standards created last thursday to people 100 years ago. It's simply recognizing that they felt like losers for not having girlfriends, which is the most obvious thing in the world to say about Dylan after reading his journal, and it's bizarre how that is resisted. "oh but they shouldn't have felt like losers" isn't even addressing anything. "x causes y" 'oh well it shouldn't' well too bad, it does.

cakeman wrote:

lol didn't even say virgins are losers who amount to nothing. He/she said they were incels, and that incel is a low status thing to be. Much odder to blame the messenger for that fact.

And no, it's nothing like applying made up PC standards created last thursday to people 100 years ago. It's simply recognizing that they felt like losers for not having girlfriends, which is the most obvious thing in the world to say about Dylan after reading his journal, and it's bizarre how that is resisted. "oh but they shouldn't have felt like losers" isn't even addressing anything. "x causes y" 'oh well it shouldn't' well too bad, it does.

Well, both of them did go on dates, but didn't go very far. So we technically can't say they didn't have g/fs.

Wading into this again, and I'll probably regret it.
Several of you are adamant that incel simply refers to men that can't get women, and that it doesn't mean anything else (it doesn't breed misogyny, etc.).
Where are you getting this information? This is a legitimate, honest question not a challenge. If you can't resist answering without a snide comment, try to ignore it and not reply because it's not helpful in advancing anyone's understanding.

Since this conversation has been going on I've looked around for stuff on incels. I've linked a few of the articles I've read in a post above.
While all these articles confirm, as you suggest, that incel means involuntary celibate, they usually go on to state that the incel subculture online often devolves into men bashing and blaming women for their inability to get laid.
This GQ article claims that the first incel was actually a bisexual woman, who started a forum called Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project so that people with a similar issue could discuss what they were going through. She ended up having to disband it because it was overrun by men with "vindictive and aggressive views."
The article goes on to state that until last November there was an incel subreddit with over 40,000 users, but it got banned for inciting "extreme violence." Some incel groups are apparently titled things like SlutHate.
Maybe a solitary incel is harmless, but when they begin interacting with others like them the behavior does appear to become angrier, potentially even aggressive.
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Obviously, the media likes to exaggerate things and if that's the case, please help point those of us less familiar with this topic to sources where we can learn a more objective view of it. But also please recognize that if we are as misinformed as some of you seem to think we are, that it is because this (the GQ and the articles linked in my other post) is the kind of information that is most readily available about incels.

Found this with regard to the banned incel subreddit. It's from the Southern Poverty Law Center website:
"While Rodger represents an extreme case, the kind of violence and hatred that led Rodger to action was not particularly surprising given the nature of the incel community. Incels, who luxuriate in their hatred of women, found a home for their hate-filled, misogynistic rants. One of the incel community’s common complaints is that women prefer “Chads” (empty-headed, good-looking men) to nice men like incels, and for this they deserve punishment. The violent rhetoric of this community finally led to the banning of the /incel subreddit — which claimed some 40,000 subscribers — in November 2017. The now banned subreddit had long featured content like posts entitled “all women are sluts.” Participants often decried women’s lack of brain capacity, genetic inferiority, cruelty, or designated women by the terms "femoids" or even, poetically, "cum dumpsters.”

you're way too young to define yourself as an incel at 17/18. Both Eric and Dylan were good looking guys, even better than many of their classmates if we want to put it on the 'simple physical attractiveness' level. Their brothers also used to have very similar facial traits and aren't they both married now if I recall correctly?

thelmar wrote:

Found this with regard to the banned incel subreddit. It's from the Southern Poverty Law Center website:
"While Rodger represents an extreme case, the kind of violence and hatred that led Rodger to action was not particularly surprising given the nature of the incel community. Incels, who luxuriate in their hatred of women, found a home for their hate-filled, misogynistic rants. One of the incel community’s common complaints is that women prefer “Chads” (empty-headed, good-looking men) to nice men like incels, and for this they deserve punishment. The violent rhetoric of this community finally led to the banning of the /incel subreddit — which claimed some 40,000 subscribers — in November 2017. The now banned subreddit had long featured content like posts entitled “all women are sluts.” Participants often decried women’s lack of brain capacity, genetic inferiority, cruelty, or designated women by the terms "femoids" or even, poetically, "cum dumpsters.”

>Southern Poverty Law Center

A real unbiased source there. Here's Mark Potok tracking the dwindling numbers of white people:

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Incel literally very obviously just means involuntary celibate. The idea that it's some Sorelian philosophy committed to violence is laughable at best, probably victim blaming at worst. Citing the SPLC means the discussion has jumped the shark and is not serious at all, and asking for a citation and a study is just unadulterated reddit cringe. Incel is not itself some ideology. It's just another way to say "male virgin" (aside from e. g. monks, who would be a volcel, "voluntary celibate"). "Find me a citation that says male virginity is not a violent ideology" makes exactly as much sense.  It's descriptive, not prescriptive. A 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend and never 'endorses violence' is no less of a 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend. Further, saying that two mass murdering aspiring terrorists aren't incels because incel is a violent ideology is doubly bizarre. On either definition, Dylan is a paradigm case.

The association between incels and dissident views is not because 'incel' means dissident views. To borrow an example to explain the difference, "creatures with a kidney" and "creatures with a heart" might pick out the same list of creatures, but they don't mean the same thing. Much the same, even if every incel thinks women are stupid and ugly and deserve violence, that's not what incel means. Indeed, one can think that and have sex with his wife. A 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend may indeed have his sexual frustration lead him to turn to violence or dissident thought, but that's not simply because he turned incel from reading the wrong book and watching the wrong tv show and absorbed crimethink - not everything is like that, it's because he was already a sexually frustrated, disenfranchised male animal. It would be like saying "short man syndrome" proves that what it means to be short isn't to be below 5'10", but to have a complex or some ideology about disliking tall people, and so some short people aren't short. It's got the whole thing backwards.

It's not even a subculture. While it would be weird for a jock, both goths and nerds, say, probably have several incels. But it might be the best one word to capture, say, an incel friendly with both goths and nerds. That's the charitable interpretation I prefer to take for someone saying their subculture was 'incel' anyway. Surely they don't mean they regularly talked about the sexual revolution being a disaster as one might on an incel message-board.

cakeman wrote:

Citing the SPLC means the discussion has jumped the shark and is not serious at all, and asking for a citation and a study is just unadulterated reddit cringe. Incel is not itself some ideology. It's just another way to say "male virgin" (aside from e. g. monks, who would be a volcel, "voluntary celibate"). "Find me a citation that says male virginity is not a violent ideology" makes exactly as much sense.  It's descriptive, not prescriptive. A 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend and never 'endorses violence' is no less of a 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend. Further, saying that two mass murdering aspiring terrorists aren't incels because incel is a violent ideology is doubly bizarre. On either definition, Dylan is a paradigm case.

Jesus. I knew it wasn't worth it.
Did you even read it or do you just try to pick out the part that you can say, aha, your point is invalid because of "x"!
I didn't quote SPLC because they are some master organization, I quoted them because it described the banned subreddit.
That's it. It said the subreddit contained posts with titles like "women are sluts," etc. That is not the SPLC's "opinion," that is what happened, why the subreddit got banned, and thus why I posted it.

I never asked you to find me a citation that male virginity is not a violent ideology. I asked you to find me information that incel actually does refer only to males (because according to the GQ article the term was coined and initially used by a woman). I asked you to find me information that it actually is a subculture in its own right because the only articles that group it as a subculture are those that link it to online groups which center on misogynistic, sometimes violent discussions. I asked you to find me more information than incel is just a portmanteau for involuntary celibate.
Did you provide any of that? No. Once again you just said, your wrong, your point is ridiculous. I am right because I say I am right not because I am actually providing you with any kind of usable information from which you can learn more. Thanks, it was super helpful.

And I never said that Eric and Dylan weren't incels because incel is a violent ideology. Where did you get that from? Read any post I have ever made and it's fairly clear that I think that they were violent kids, especially in the year leading up to and during the attack. What ACTUALLY happened was that I said from my understanding of what an incel was, I didn't think it applied to Eric and Dylan. Not because "incels are violent and E & D aren't" but because it was my impression that an incel's self worth revolves around the fact that he hasn't had sex and that this is what potentially drives the violent impulses.
Continue on with whatever comments you want to make about how stupid we all are without advancing a conversation one iota. I won't be engaging with you any longer unless I see you are actually providing information I can actually learn from.

thelmar wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Citing the SPLC means the discussion has jumped the shark and is not serious at all, and asking for a citation and a study is just unadulterated reddit cringe. Incel is not itself some ideology. It's just another way to say "male virgin" (aside from e. g. monks, who would be a volcel, "voluntary celibate"). "Find me a citation that says male virginity is not a violent ideology" makes exactly as much sense.  It's descriptive, not prescriptive. A 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend and never 'endorses violence' is no less of a 30 year old virgin who wants a girlfriend. Further, saying that two mass murdering aspiring terrorists aren't incels because incel is a violent ideology is doubly bizarre. On either definition, Dylan is a paradigm case.

Jesus. I knew it wasn't worth it.
Did you even read it or do you just try to pick out the part that you can say, aha, your point is invalid because of "x"!
I didn't quote SPLC because they are some master organization, I quoted them because it described the banned subreddit.
That's it. It said the subreddit contained posts with titles like "women are sluts," etc. That is not the SPLC's "opinion," that is what happened, why the subreddit got banned, and thus why I posted it.

I never asked you to find me a citation that male virginity is not a violent ideology. I asked you to find me information that incel actually does refer only to males (because according to the GQ article the term was coined and initially used by a woman). I asked you to find me information that it actually is a subculture in its own right because the only articles that group it as a subculture are those that link it to online groups which center on misogynistic, sometimes violent discussions. I asked you to find me more information than incel is just a portmanteau for involuntary celibate.
Did you provide any of that? No. Once again you just said, your wrong, your point is ridiculous. I am right because I say I am right not because I am actually providing you with any kind of usable information from which you can learn more. Thanks, it was super helpful.

And I never said that Eric and Dylan weren't incels because incel is a violent ideology. Where did you get that from? Read any post I have ever made and it's fairly clear that I think that they were violent kids, especially in the year leading up to and during the attack. What ACTUALLY happened was that I said from my understanding of what an incel was, I didn't think it applied to Eric and Dylan. Not because "incels are violent and E & D aren't" but because it was my impression that an incel's self worth revolves around the fact that he hasn't had sex and that this is what potentially drives the violent impulses.
Continue on with whatever comments you want to make about how stupid we all are without advancing a conversation one iota. I won't be engaging with you any longer unless I see you are actually providing information I can actually learn from.

I literally very explicitly disagreed that it was a subculture, but don't mind reading, just accuse me of not reading and pretend I called anyone stupid. Talk about wasn't worth it when didn't address e. g. what philosophers call the difference between sense and reference, or intension and extension, or meaning and naming, illustrated with kidneys and heart; or the difference illustrated with short people. You obviously stopped reading at the SPLC point. Asking for a citation is still ludicrous, and the SPLC is still the worst possible citation, for anything.  It simply means a virgin who isn't voluntarily such. All it is is a portmanteau. I didn't just say "I'm right", I illustrated the difference with examples, despite your pretending I just stopped at laughing at the SPLC because it is where you stopped.

Again, even if EVERY incel's "self worth revolved around the fact that he hadn't had sex", saying those are the same thing is confusing sense and reference.  An involuntary celibate whose self worth didn't revolve around that, is still an incel, which is literally just the short form of "involuntary celibate", which is just a longer form of "virgin" excluding the likes of monks; and "self worth revolving around the fact that he has sex", is just a fact of life called "being a male",  not some ideology applying only to incels.  Even if every short man had "short man syndrome", that doesn't mean "short man" means "having short man syndrome". Even if every creature with a kidney has a heart and vice versa, that doesn't mean "creature with a kidney" means the same thing as "creature with a heart".  So, "Look at these things incels say" isn't a citation either. That's the point. This isn't an issue which requires or could require citation; that is just a defense mechanism. "Man with lab coat agrees with me".   Citing urban dictionary is enough, but completely uninteresting, and something which would have been looked at already by somebody actually interested.

"I said from my understanding of what an incel was, I didn't think it applied to Eric and Dylan. Not because "incels are violent and E & D aren't" but because it was my impression that an incel's self worth revolves around the fact that he hasn't had sex and that this is what potentially drives the violent impulses."  That's obviously just begging the question that their violent impulses weren't related to being incels, which is very much on the table given Dylan's writings. And it's not just sex, as I said above. Incel doesn't mean never been with a prostitute; it means never had a girlfriend.

That it applies to males is shown this easily: "Femcel" is the term for a female incel, because incel is assumed male. Or, ya know, the common knowledge that virgin isn't an insult for women, rather slut is. "A key that can open several locks is a good key; a lock that can be opened by several keys is a shitty lock."