Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh

QuestionMark wrote:

Ziamber II wrote:

The risk with bombs is that they can detonate prematurely, killing the perpetrator, or be useless, like Columbine and some ISIS bombs were.

I've also seen loads of plots that were disrupted because someone discovered the bombs or materials for them long before the plan was ready to be put into motion. Making bombs greatly increases the risk of being caught.

That is true. A bomb would require lots of preparation and also obtaining components that could be tracked and noticed by the security forces. With a gun, you just load it up and walk out. At least if you already own a gun.

Still, if we are at a point when someone is determined to go out and shoot or bomb people, then its already too late. At this stage some people will probably die no matter what. At that stage the only thing that matters are safety features, training and preparation that have already been put in place by the authorities (warning sustems, classrooms with solid doors locked from the inside etc). These can minimize the bodycount, but in the initial minutes of the atatck the shooter will have the element of surprise and the first few people he attacks will probably die.

As such, we need not only to get better at safety features minimizing the effects of an ongoing attack. What we need to do now is to get better at detecting potential shooters before they strike. Convincing potential shooters taht its all not worth it and giving them a way out before they even become shooters.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Was going through some files and realized just how fucking similar Tim and (short haired) Dylan looked while wearing a hat.

Video footage of Timothy McVeigh's getaway car after he was pulled over. The reason McVeigh isn't shown on the footage is the trooper supposedly pushed the wrong button on his dash cam. SO McVeigh is already in the back of the police car.

 My "conspiracy theorist" senses are tingling!

Dylan does look like McVeigh in that photo.

W.A.R. wrote:

Dylan does look like McVeigh in that photo.

I thought so too. They shared the same facial features. Strong profile, squared chin, prominent nose, strong jawline.

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Documents gathered during the bombing investigation show that a form letter from the Department of Defense Finance and Accounting Service was sent to Mr. McVeigh at his home in Lockport, N.Y., on Feb. 15, 1993, two years after he had left the Army after serving in the Persian Gulf war. The letter asked for the full $1,058 or a $50 installment within 30 days.

"I have received your notice informing me of my debt owed to you, as well as your threat of referring me to the Justice Department (Big Brother). In all honesty, I cannot even dream of repaying you the $1,000 which you say I owe. In fact, I can barely afford my monthly rent. Assets? The only thing I own of any value is my car, a 1987 Chevrolet/Geo Spectrum. If you really want the car, go ahead and seize it.

My car is my only way to get to work to support myself. But I guess that’s all irrelevant to you. Go ahead, take everything I own; take my dignity. Feel good as you grow fat and rich at my expense; sucking my tax dollars and property, tax dollars which justify your existence and pay your federal salary. Do you get it? By doing your evil job, you put me out of work."



The above was the letter McVeigh sent back in response. I can agree with his anger on that. I mean he had served his country during a war. Came back from said war as a decorated Vet. AND all they cared about was he had been overpaid the tiny amount of $1,058 dollars!?  

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

"My car is my only way to get to work to support myself. But I guess that’s all irrelevant to you. Go ahead, take everything I own; take my dignity. Feel good as you grow fat and rich at my expense; sucking my tax dollars and property, tax dollars which justify your existence and pay your federal salary. Do you get it? By doing your evil job, you put me out of work."

Wow, he had guts! Did they keep asking for the money after his letter?

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

"My car is my only way to get to work to support myself. But I guess that’s all irrelevant to you. Go ahead, take everything I own; take my dignity. Feel good as you grow fat and rich at my expense; sucking my tax dollars and property, tax dollars which justify your existence and pay your federal salary. Do you get it? By doing your evil job, you put me out of work."

Wow, he had guts! Did they keep asking for the money after his letter?

Not sure what transpired after that.

One would hope that the government would have let it go and realize they were being petty assholes, but probably not!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Was going through some files and realized just how fucking similar Tim and (short haired) Dylan looked while wearing a hat.

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was attractive.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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Documents gathered during the bombing investigation show that a form letter from the Department of Defense Finance and Accounting Service was sent to Mr. McVeigh at his home in Lockport, N.Y., on Feb. 15, 1993, two years after he had left the Army after serving in the Persian Gulf war. The letter asked for the full $1,058 or a $50 installment within 30 days.

"I have received your notice informing me of my debt owed to you, as well as your threat of referring me to the Justice Department (Big Brother). In all honesty, I cannot even dream of repaying you the $1,000 which you say I owe. In fact, I can barely afford my monthly rent. Assets? The only thing I own of any value is my car, a 1987 Chevrolet/Geo Spectrum. If you really want the car, go ahead and seize it.

My car is my only way to get to work to support myself. But I guess that’s all irrelevant to you. Go ahead, take everything I own; take my dignity. Feel good as you grow fat and rich at my expense; sucking my tax dollars and property, tax dollars which justify your existence and pay your federal salary. Do you get it? By doing your evil job, you put me out of work."



The above was the letter McVeigh sent back in response. I can agree with his anger on that. I mean he had served his country during a war. Came back from said war as a decorated Vet. AND all they cared about was he had been overpaid the tiny amount of $1,058 dollars!?  

The way our veterans are treated in general is deplorable.

My friends is better and she was in the army and said she can’t get coverage for a simple filling but if her face was blown off then she would be

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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Documents gathered during the bombing investigation show that a form letter from the Department of Defense Finance and Accounting Service was sent to Mr. McVeigh at his home in Lockport, N.Y., on Feb. 15, 1993, two years after he had left the Army after serving in the Persian Gulf war. The letter asked for the full $1,058 or a $50 installment within 30 days.

"I have received your notice informing me of my debt owed to you, as well as your threat of referring me to the Justice Department (Big Brother). In all honesty, I cannot even dream of repaying you the $1,000 which you say I owe. In fact, I can barely afford my monthly rent. Assets? The only thing I own of any value is my car, a 1987 Chevrolet/Geo Spectrum. If you really want the car, go ahead and seize it.

My car is my only way to get to work to support myself. But I guess that’s all irrelevant to you. Go ahead, take everything I own; take my dignity. Feel good as you grow fat and rich at my expense; sucking my tax dollars and property, tax dollars which justify your existence and pay your federal salary. Do you get it? By doing your evil job, you put me out of work."



The above was the letter McVeigh sent back in response. I can agree with his anger on that. I mean he had served his country during a war. Came back from said war as a decorated Vet. AND all they cared about was he had been overpaid the tiny amount of $1,058 dollars!?  

The way our veterans are treated in general is deplorable.

100% AGREED!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

No worries but yea, That is a really nice picture of him.

Now I want to call my god cousin and ask questions. Like I know it was 30 years ago but do you remember anything??

I lived 10 minutes away from him. That is very Strange thinking I could’ve been in the supermarket with my mom and dad and he could’ve been there too. I was like 10 then though

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

No worries but yea, That is a really nice picture of him.

Now I want to call my god  cousin and ask questions. Like I know it was 30 years ago but do you remember anything??

I lived 10 minutes away from him. That is very Strange thinking I could’ve been in the supermarket with my mom and dad and he could’ve been there too. I was like 10 then though

LOL! Thanks for being so understanding that I'm trying to corrupt your mind!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

No worries but yea, That is a really nice picture of him.

Now I want to call my god  cousin and ask questions. Like I know it was 30 years ago but


do you remember anything??

I lived 10 minutes away from him. That is very Strange thinking I could’ve been in the supermarket with my mom and dad and he could’ve been there too. I was like 10 then though

LOL! Thanks for being so understanding that I'm trying to corrupt your mind!

Of course!!


Only send me to the insane asylum if I start thinking Richard Ramirez is attractive like many many women do.

I also wonder if Eric being from a military family helped him understand Timothy McVeigh’s motives from a different point of view? Like not only that he killed a lot of people but he knows the ins and outs of being in the military. And what can happen and what can It can do to a person?

I of course don’t condone but I think in Eric’s mind he had to do the massacre.There was no other choice.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

I need to set you free from his charisma! Sadly this is the worst picture I found of him, not sure it will be enough:

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HEY GIRLS! DO YOU THINK I'M SEXY?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Of course!!

Only send me to the insane asylum if I start thinking Richard Ramirez is attractive like many many women do.

I also wonder if Eric being from a military family helped him understand Timothy McVeigh’s motives from a different point of view? Like not only that he killed a lot of people but he knows the ins and outs of being in the military. And what can happen and what can It can do to a person?

I of course don’t condone but I think in Eric’s mind he had to do the massacre.There was no other choice.

I do think Eric was likely impressed with McVeigh. McVeigh was what Eric wanted to be, a soldier who carried out his mission.

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

I need to set you free from his charisma! Sadly this is the worst picture I found of him, not sure it will be enough:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
HEY GIRLS! DO YOU THINK I'M SEXY?

Actually that may make it worse!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

I need to set you free from his charisma! Sadly this is the worst picture I found of him, not sure it will be enough:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
HEY GIRLS! DO YOU THINK I'M SEXY?

Actually that may make it worse!

Then I'm sorry to say that you are a lost cause. There's nothing I can do for you. Damn! Why did you have to look like a model in all your pictures Timothy!

Some people here are sounding like fangirls lmao.

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wow yes. Don’t plant thoughts into my head the last thing I wanna do is also think Timothy McVeigh was  attractive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Sorry! But I do agree. McVeigh was attractive by my standards as well.

I need to set you free from his charisma! Sadly this is the worst picture I found of him, not sure it will be enough:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
HEY GIRLS! DO YOU THINK I'M SEXY?

Actually that may make it worse!

Then I'm sorry to say that you are a lost cause.  There's nothing I can do for you. Damn! Why did you have to look like a model in all your pictures Timothy!

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Maybe not ALL his pics, but enough to make you realize that he had a "glow up" somewhere along the way!  

Tommy QTR wrote:

Some people here are sounding like fangirls lmao.

I agree, but I'm not one of them, I swear! It is strange that McVeigh managed to escape the usual public release of cringey pictures of mass murderers. It is probably because he was a grown-up, so he was more mature than most school shooters.

Tommy QTR wrote:

Some people here are sounding like fangirls lmao.

Not a fangirl, and I am secure enough in my NON fangirlness to say that McVeigh was still good looking.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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Maybe not ALL his pics, but enough to make you realize that he had a "glow up" somewhere along the way!  

Come on, he was in the spirit of the times!

Tommy QTR wrote:

Some people here are sounding like fangirls lmao.

Ironically so

It’s just me and SG being funny At least to us. Which is really all that matters

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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Maybe not ALL his pics, but enough to make you realize that he had a "glow up" somewhere along the way!  

Come on, he was in the spirit of the times!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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Maybe not ALL his pics, but enough to make you realize that he had a "glow up" somewhere along the way!  

Come on, he was in the spirit of the times!

Ah the good old days

Where’s my crimper?

I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.

Yea, my friend saw a picture if Eric and said “wow he’s hot” Then I told her you should see his butt. She said I hate you...

Tommy QTR wrote:

I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.

I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane.

You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric. Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.


That will never get old

Screamingophelia wrote:

You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old

NEVER!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.

I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane.

I think they both have the same nose and are bald.

But again that's just me, I mean I think Dylan is more good looking then Eric.

Tommy QTR wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

I've always thought he looked like TJ Lane, but that's just me.

I don't see any resemblance between McVeigh and Lane.

I think they both have the same nose and are bald.

But again that's just me, I mean I think Dylan is more good looking then Eric.

you’re a unicorn!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old

NEVER!

And I will never believe if Eric did end up getting laid before the massacre that he would not have at least checked his little box that he made on his list. That’s at the very least... I’m pretty sure he would’ve told everybody

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

You know I also think Eric admired him because much like Eric.  Tim got chicks, lots of chicks.  


That will never get old

NEVER!

And I will never believe if Eric did end up getting laid before the massacre that he would not have at least checked his  little box that he made on his list. That’s at the very least... I’m pretty sure he would’ve told everybody

True! He would have checked that little box with the biggest, boldest, check mark that paper allowed!

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           Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

                                             William Ernest Henley







McVeigh offered no last words before being executed. Instead he chose this poem to stand as his last thoughts. Invictus was written in 1875.

Timmy had decent taste in poetry.

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Highlights from article-


It was the last time father and son would see each other.

With a wall of glass between them, Timothy McVeigh looked his father and sister, Jennifer, in the eyes and admitted his guilt to them for the first time. He answered every one of their questions.

But on April 10, when they met this final time at the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Ind., the Oklahoma City bomber refused one of his father's last requests.

"I would've liked to have had him apologize," Bill McVeigh told The Oklahoman in a telephone interview from his home in Pendleton, N.Y.

"But the answer is, that he give me was, if he was apologizing, if he apologized, it would be just to make the people happy. It wouldn't be the truth.

"So, you know, in other words, he told me he still feels he did the right thing."

And so this law-abiding father, who spends his days of retirement at the golf course, the bowling alley, the bingo hall - anywhere but alone in the chair where he is left to think, has come to accept the mind-set of Timothy McVeigh. Or at least that he can't do anything about it.

"That's the tough part about it. This is tough for me to take, but this is basically what he tells everybody, you know. 'Tim, don't you think you should apologize? Dad, if I did I wouldn't be telling the truth.' So I guess that's a truthful answer."

As Oklahomans prepare for the May 16 execution of the bomber who took 168 lives and injured hundreds of others, his 61-year-old father prepares for the loss of his only son. Bill McVeigh loves the boy he still calls "Timmy" - but he disagrees with "90 percent of his theories" and hates what his son did. He won't attend the execution at his son's request, and neither will any other family members.

He also knows an apology wouldn't change anything - and the retired factory worker didn't expect one anyway.

"I did ask him that straight out, you know, if he was going to apologize," the father said. "When I got there, by reading the first part of the book, I knew what his answer was going to be. But I had to hear it from him."

Bill McVeigh said his son asked him not to visit until the release of the book, "American Terrorist," in which Timothy McVeigh, 32, admits to bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and says he has no sympathy for the people in Oklahoma City.

The book opened the door for questions. Bill McVeigh said he showed up with a list - and in their 3 1/2 hour visit, his son answered everything.

Despite the somber circumstances, Bill McVeigh said the conversation came easy.

"Tim is going to tell you the way it is and that's it, you know. You ask him a question, he's going to answer it with what he thinks is right," McVeigh said. "You know, whether you think it's right or not, that's something different. But he tells how it is, and I appreciate that."

"To me, we were always close, but if the people ask Tim, he says we weren't, so I really don't understand what he thinks close is," Bill McVeigh said.

Father and son talk on the phone about twice a month and never run out of things to say.

Despite his son's wishes to have no funeral or memorial service, Bill McVeigh said there will be a private memorial at Good Shepherd for close friends and family members. That was one concession the mild-mannered father extracted from his determined son.

"I asked him if that was all right, and he said, 'Sure, if that's what you want to do, go ahead,'" the father said.

Timothy McVeigh had given his father a list of six or eight items that included his request for no service, as well as a "do not resuscitate" order and instructions for his cremated remains to go to his attorney, Rob Nigh of Tulsa.

"He won't tell us where they're going to dump them," Bill McVeigh said. "He don't want us to have anything to do with it."

A devout Catholic, Bill McVeigh said he hasn't made peace yet with his son's afterlife. He said Timothy McVeigh has at least five of his six witnesses selected, and a spiritual adviser is not among them.

During their last visit, Jennifer McVeigh asked her brother whether he believed in God.

"His first response was, a God but a different God. And then he went on to explain to Jenny, but I didn't hear anymore of it."

There's no question in Bill McVeigh's mind that his son is ready for execution. The bomber told his father last fall that he was ready to drop his appeals, which he did in December.

"He just, he felt it was time to quit," Bill McVeigh said. "He knows he did it, you know, so where's he going to get, you know? I mean, he lives in a what, 8-by-10 or 6-by-10 cell or something, no recreation, nothing. If he exercises, it's in a cage by himself. You know, I figure he's just had enough. It's time."

That doesn't mean the father is ready to see his son go.

"I'll never be ready. I can't say, you know, it's only a month from today. I thought about that when I woke up this morning. No, I'll never be ready."

And yet Bill McVeigh said he sympathizes with families and survivors of the bombing. Some Oklahomans, such as Bud Welch and Kathy Wilburn, who both lost loved ones, have reached out to him in friendship.

"This is a man who is going through absolute hell," said Welch, an opponent of the death penalty who visited Bill McVeigh in 1998 and sat around the kitchen table with him. Welch, whose daughter Julie was killed, recalled looking at Timothy McVeigh's high school picture hanging on the wall - "God, what a good-looking kid," he said then.

Welch called Bill McVeigh another victim of this tragedy. Some Oklahomans have said they are keeping Bill McVeigh in their thoughts; a few others intend to make contact, either by mail or perhaps in person.

"He needs to know that families hold him in no way accountable. As a parent, we cannot live our children's lives when they get out on their own," said Tom Kight, who lost his stepdaughter, Frankie Merrell, in the bombing.

So even if his son won't apologize, Bill McVeigh doesn't hesitate to say he is sorry the bombing happened.

"I'm still sitting here saying to myself, I don't understand how anybody, no more my son, could do something like this, and I still don't, you know. I can ask him why all day long and he can tell me his reasons, and with me they don't make no sense," he said.

When their visit ended, there were no hugs good-bye. Timothy McVeigh had been given the option of hugging his family one last time, but his father said he declined.

"Jennifer says, 'Ain't we gonna get to hug?' And he says, 'You know, they asked me and told me I could and I said no.' And Jenny says, 'I know you're not a hugger, but Timmy, this is the time we should've had a hug,'" his father recalled. "And he just laughed."

Before McVeigh was led away in handcuffs, his father and sister put their hands on the glass. The son and brother met them halfway.

"He put his hands up against the glass and me and Jenny touched him. Touched the glass where his hands were. But that - that's the way that went."






How could any parent ever be ready for the death of their child? Hell he was still trying to come to terms with the fact his son could have done the things he did do, or had a hand in doing.

Much less facing his death by execution.  

Wow!! Thank you for sharing that

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

I'm not blaming Bill McVeigh for it though.

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

Agreed And honestly when you look at the big cases. Be it shootings, bombings or serial killers there is always a string of narcissism

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

I think its one thing to want to be in control of one's soul. It is another thing to pick these lines as your farewell note, especially in a situation where you are being led to your execution. A situation that few would call a good example of being a "master of one's fate".

Its not that the poem is itself narcissistic, its the circumstances he is using it. He is anything but "in control", but still wants to project an impresiion of being in control

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

I think if there is evidence of McVeigh being a narcissist, this is it.

Then most people are narcissistic by nature. Who doesn't want to be the master of their fate and be in control of their soul?

I think its one thing to want to be in control of one's soul. It is another thing to pick these lines as your farewell note, especially in a situation where you are being led to your execution. A situation that few would call a good example of being a "master of one's fate".

Its not that the poem is itself narcissistic, its the circumstances he is using it. He is anything but "in control", but still wants to project an impresiion of being in control

Well, I fully believe that Tim wanted to be caught. He wanted to be put on trial. He knew he would lose but he would have a chance to get his message to the public. He succeeded. He actually mentioned wanting to have the execution televised. In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.

Also, the man used his life for the purpose he saw fit, right or wrong. His fate was decided as soon as he lit the fuse but he decided to light that fuse. As with any mass shooter who commits suicide, they've gotten the last word in terms of their own life, regardless of what anyone else thinks. From his perspective, Tim got his revenge on the government and he also had the chance to tell the world his story. He didn't think he was going to get away with it and in fact, there is reason to suspect that he made it easier for them catch him because he wanted his day in court.

You can still be the master of your fate, the captain of your soul, even if you decide to steer the ship into an iceberg on purpose.

I'm not sure he "wanted to be caught", with this sort of attack and scale, he just knew that will be caught.

Now once he reconciled himself with being caught, I'm sure he wanted to be executed and he would prefer it to be televised etc. To die in public, adamantly holding his ground for his cause. That was probably his desire.

At the same time, he appeared to want to seem to be in control, to seem strong. I think it is worth noting that instead of a poem that refers to the cause he wanted to defend, he chose the one with "I am the master of my fate".

That's my evaluation: This bombing was about Tim McVeigh first, all the "grand causes" came second.

Sabratha wrote:

I'm not sure he "wanted to be caught", with this sort of attack and scale, he just knew that will be caught.

Now once he reconciled himself with being caught, I'm sure he wanted to be executed and he would prefer it to be televised etc. To die in public, adamantly holding his ground for his cause. That was probably his desire.

At the same time, he appeared to want to seem to be in control, to seem strong. I think it is worth noting that instead of a poem that refers to the cause he wanted to defend, he chose the one with "I am the master of my fate".

That's my evaluation: This bombing was about Tim McVeigh first, all the "grand causes" came second.

Well, I do agree with the bolded sentence completely. I said something to that effect in a long, rambling post earlier in the thread.

Still, I would say that Tim did believe what he was saying and he made his final official statement on the bombing on the day of his sentencing.

Quote :

If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, "Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example."

That's all I have.

Timothy McVeigh, August 14, 1997 -- just prior to being officially sentenced to death

This is a lovely, in-depth interpretation of the meaning of that statement.
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In case you don't want to read it all, here is the longer passage which McVeigh pulled that sentence from, so you can make your own judgment as to the meaning and whether it was relevant to his motive.

Quote :

"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face."

The poem was about his life because the execution was about his life.

In regard to why I believe he wanted to be caught: Tim committed crimes in the past without being caught. He could have had some freedom in the aftermath of the bombing, if only for a short time, and he had even considered what he might do following the bombing if he wasn't immediately apprehended.

In reality, Tim left the plates off of his car, was pulled over within hours of the bombing and was promptly arrested because he was illegally carrying a concealed weapon at the time. He left materials in his car that he hoped would be leaked to the media.

He could easily have stolen plates from someone else if he didn't want to use his own. He could have left his gun in the trunk. He could have shot at the cop and he would have escaped with his freedom for some amount of time, or started a shootout that would leave him dead, never to be imprisoned or held accountable for his crimes. He was sneaky. He got away with an elaborate home invasion and a major break-in at a construction site but he couldn't drive away from the scene of the crime without getting himself caught this time? I think he made a choice and it was just as calculated as anything else he did. He wanted credit for this.

sscc wrote:

Well, I fully believe that Tim wanted to be caught. He wanted to be put on trial. He knew he would lose but he would have a chance to get his message to the public. He succeeded. He actually mentioned wanting to have the execution televised. In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.

Also, the man used his life for the purpose he saw fit, right or wrong. His fate was decided as soon as he lit the fuse but he decided to light that fuse. As with any mass shooter who commits suicide, they've gotten the last word in terms of their own life, regardless of what anyone else thinks. From his perspective, Tim got his revenge on the government and he also had the chance to tell the world his story. He didn't think he was going to get away with it and in fact, there is reason to suspect that he made it easier for them catch him because he wanted his day in court.

You can still be the master of your fate, the captain of your soul, even if you decide to steer the ship into an iceberg on purpose.

Agreed. I do think McVeigh thought long and hard about getting caught, also about what his life would be like if he wasn't. Then decided pretty much just to leave it to chance/fate.

"In his eyes, it would probably even highlight the hypocrisy of the American government. He would have been excused for "collateral damage" while in the army but outside of that context he was given a death sentence. That was his point of view.."  

This is dead on accurate!  Tim had a very jaded view of things after his Military service, and also seemed to have a great dislike for the government as a whole.

But the more one digs into it, the more things start getting sketchy. Some things add up and others don't at all. It's a known fact the FBI hid/destroyed/withheld evidence relating to the case. Some think Tim was a government Op, while others think he was just a traitor. Some think Tim had help, possibly even from our own government, while some believe the "Lone Wolf" theory. Which is what McVeigh wanted, he did want full credit for the attack. But the bigger and more importantly the unanswered question is, did he want full credit because he was a narcissistic psychopath? OR was he covering for other people involved, which may or may not have included the government?  

I guess it depends on which angle you choose to look at it from. I try to look at something from all angles possible. This is where you see the right and wrong of everything.

sscc wrote:

Tim committed crimes in the past without being caught. (...) He was sneaky. He got away with an elaborate home invasion and a major break-in at a construction site but he couldn't drive away from the scene of the crime without getting himself caught this time?

A bombing on this scale is something else entirely. Home invasion is one thing, but the bombing would initiate a nationwide manhut (that in the end got Tim's accomplices nailed). Tim was not stupid and he knew he would be caught at some point. I doubt he expected to be caught so quickly though, I think he was hoping to have some time "on the run".

I also don't see a reason to think Tim planned the thing with the plates on purpose. He did plan ahead and placed that getaway car on that parking lot and went to some lenght to make sure the car wouldn't be towed away before the bombing. This wouldn't make much sense if his intention was already to get caught on day 1.

sscc wrote:

He could easily have stolen plates from someone else if he didn't want to use his own. He could have left his gun in the trunk.

I don't see much reasons to consider this as deliberate sabotage, instead of just seeing it as flaws in the plan that got him caught. Ockham's razor 101.

Sabratha wrote:

I don't see much reasons to consider this as deliberate sabotage, instead of just seeing it as flaws in the plan that got him caught. Ockham's razor 101.

I can't say with certainty whether or not he did it on purpose but there is as much reason to believe that he did if you take context into consideration. Yes, there was a nationwide manhunt but the scale of his crime had absolutely nothing to to do with immediately landing himself in a local jail so that is irrelevant. I never said that he expected to escape to Mexico but this was the first time in his life that he was arrested for anything at all, despite numerous crimes. And you are correct in saying that he planned ahead and he made sure that his car was not towed before the bombing but he did that by removing a plate on the back of his car and then backing it up against a wall so it wouldn't be noticed. What was the point in removing the plate at all? I'm sure that the simplest answer is that he was a dope who forgot how to get away with a crime right after pulling off the worst act domestic terrorism in US history but I have a hard time believing it. Agree to disagree!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Which is what McVeigh wanted, he did want full credit for the attack. But the bigger and more importantly the unanswered question is, did he want full credit because he was a narcissistic psychopath? OR was he covering for other people involved, which may or may not have included the government?

I wouldn't say that McVeigh was a lone wolf because he surely had accomplices but I believe the official story, that they were other men who shared his sentiments. I would not be surprised if there was further minimal involvement from additional accomplices but I also wouldn't be surprised if the truth is already out. I don't know what the government would have gained by facilitating this attack although I'll admit that I have never really looked into the government conspiracy theories and I am not aware of the evidence tampering or what that might suggest. I would be willing to believe that there was some involvement with the white supremacist militia group that he was distantly connected with (I can't remember the name or details anymore). I don't think that Tim necessarily had to be a psychopath to want all of the credit for himself although I do consider it a possibility, but if he was not psychopathic and he implicated anyone within a well-armed, well-financed group of radicals, he could potentially put his family in danger and I don't think he wanted to do that. I think the most likely situation is that he was a narcissist and very proud of himself for being able to plan and carry out this enormous crime, mostly by himself. He more or less bragged about that in later interviews when he said, "The truth is, I blew up the Murrah Building. And isn't it kind of scary that one man could reap this kind of hell?" It wasn't even technically true and that would go along with his arrogance or with his habit of lying but in either case, it made his crime appear to be even more impressive.

McVeigh almost evaded the cop that day. The cop himself admitted it was luck and that he was planning to let McVeigh go after giving him a ticket. McVeigh agaion had bad luck because the local judge would then hear him and probably let him go again, but was delayed due to random stuff.

Quote :

McVeigh didn't have proof of insurance or a bill of sale for the car. He told the always-suspicious Hanger that he was on a long, multi-state drive — moving to Arkansas and on his way to get more of his belongings. But there was no suitcase in the car. No change of clothes, either.

As McVeigh reached into his rear pocket for his driver's license, his windbreaker tightened, and Hanger noticed the bulge of a shoulder holster under his left arm. McVeigh was wearing a loaded Glock pistol and had a 6-inch knife on his belt.

"My gun is loaded," Hanger recalled McVeigh telling him as Hanger grabbed the bulge under the jacket.

"So is mine," the trooper responded, putting his own gun to McVeigh's head before arresting him for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon. If he hadn't spotted the bulge, he would have let McVeigh go with a ticket.

As Hanger drove back to the Noble County Courthouse, McVeigh, sitting in the passenger seat, rattled off the serial number of his gun, correctly except for a single digit. He asked Hanger how fast his car ran, what kind of firearm he carried, how he could get his own gun back.

"I thought it was just nervous chatter," Hanger said. "The radio was going. They were still sending units to Oklahoma City. I never made any comment about it and he never made any comment about it. I thought, 'He's just passing through. He doesn't know what's going on.'"

Hanger booked McVeigh into the Noble County Jail, inmate 95-057, and took his wife to lunch. Like everyone else, he was glued to the TV news coverage of the bombing.

As the nation searched for the bomber and public speculation lingered on men of Middle Eastern descent,McVeigh sat in a concrete cell atop the aging courthouse.

McVeigh was supposed to go before a county judge the next day, Thursday, but his hearing was delayed because the judge got tied up in a messy divorce case. The hearing was rescheduled for Friday.

Hanger was at home that morning when a dispatcher with Highway Patrol headquarters called asking if McVeigh was still in jail. Hanger doubted it, since he could easily make bail, but to his surprise McVeigh was still there, his car still parked by the interstate about 35 miles south of the Kansas state line.

McVeigh's hearing had been delayed again, this time because the judge's son had missed the school bus and the judge had to give the boy a ride. McVeigh probably would be seeing the judge any minute, Hanger told the dispatcher. Put a hold on him for the FBI, he was told. Now.

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So to say the truth, he almost managed to get away at least on that day. I'm sure he would get caught later on though either way. He seems to have been ready to flee and all those preparations with the getaway car would have been pointless if he wanted to get caught then. I think Tim forgetting about the plates in teh heat of the moment is a simple explanation.