Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh

QuestionMark wrote:

I know you weren't the one who wrote it but I feel compelled to respond that the masses will accept cruel and terrible moral actions so long as they are convinced that their enemies are the scum of the Earth.

True. As long as the public are told its for the greater good, for their own protection, etc. they will for the most part allow anything to happen and not bat an eye.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I know you weren't the one who wrote it but I feel compelled to respond that the masses will accept cruel and terrible moral actions so long as they are convinced that their enemies are the scum of the Earth.

True. As long as the public are told its for the greater good, for their own protection, etc. they will for the most part allow anything to happen and not bat an eye.

I agree but allowing something to happen is not exactly the same as agreeing something. White supremacist didn't only want people to accept them, they wanted people to support them. And I think that not being that shocked and moved by the Charleston shooting doesn't mean that people were supportive of it.

I don't know to what extent it is true but I read somewhere that the nazis didn't really want the German people to be fully aware of the horrible things that were going on because they thought the "masses" was still too sensitive and emotional and thus not ready yet to accept what they thought was the harsh but necessary action. This is why they used euphemism such as "the final solution", "euthanasia", "mercy death", "special treatment"... The simple fact that nazis and white supremacists need to dehumanize their enemies/victims to be able to hurt them shows that people's acceptance to cruelty against other human beings has limits. After Charleston, some white supremacists thought that the killing of innocent black people, and then the images of their crying families would move people, which is the opposite of dehumanization. This is what they meant in their comments on the blog I think.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Thank you! This is my favorite Non-Columbine related thread

Tim McVeigh is very interesting..

Agreed.

I watched a documentary on Netflix a year or so ago along with the Zero Hour episode on YouTube and some more conspiratorial stuff.

I was gonna buy "American Terrorist" but never did and lost interest. This thread has reignited my interest in the case.

Now that they have revisited OJ and Waco with documentaries and mini-series, I'm wondering if we are gonna get something on Oklahoma City? (then Columbine? to complete the revisit of 90's events).

W.A.R. wrote:

Now that they have revisited OJ and Waco with documentaries and mini-series, I'm wondering if we are gonna get something on Oklahoma City? (then Columbine? to complete the revisit of 90's events).

That's a great question, i hope they do because those would be very interesting to see what they do with it.

W.A.R. wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Thank you! This is my favorite Non-Columbine related thread

Tim McVeigh is very interesting..

Agreed.

I watched a documentary on Netflix a year or so ago along with the Zero Hour episode on YouTube and some more conspiratorial stuff.

I was gonna buy "American Terrorist" but never did and lost interest. This thread has reignited my interest in the case.

Glad to re-spark your interest!     I will fully admit to having completely lost myself in the case once again. I researched it a few years back, and stepped away after I blew thru most of the available content at the time.

Then recently I was cleaning out some old files/folders and found my McVeigh info, and here I am revisiting and researching almost obsessively again.  

But once you know certain things it makes it hard to stop digging. Sadly with the case there is SO much that just makes very little sense and doesn't add up at all.  Not to mention all the conspiracy theories that surround McVeigh and the case as well. An I LOVE a good conspiracy.

W.A.R. wrote:

Now that they have revisited OJ and Waco with documentaries and mini-series, I'm wondering if we are gonna get something on Oklahoma City? (then Columbine? to complete the revisit of 90's events).

I truly hope so! Especially on Oklahoma City. Although something new on Columbine would be nice as well.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



Timmy's official Army "yearbook" picture.

Also just wanted to list the books on Tim McVeigh/Oklahoma City that I currently own. Here they are in no particular order.



American Terrorist  -By Lou Michel & Dan Herbeck

All American Monster  -By Brandon Stickney

Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh  -By Wendy Painting

Others Unknown  -By Stephan Jones & Peter Israel

Secrets Worth Dying For: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer & Jeffery William Paul

Deadly Secrets: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer

Final Report on the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By The Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee

One of Ours: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Richard A. Serrano



EDIT- Had to add the two newest books that I just bought on the subject. 

Oklahoma City : What the Investigation Missed -- And Why It Still Matters  -By Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles

Oklahoma City: Day One: A Detailed Account of the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By Michele Marie Moore

W.A.R. wrote:

Now that they have revisited OJ and Waco with documentaries and mini-series, I'm wondering if we are gonna get something on Oklahoma City? (then Columbine? to complete the revisit of 90's events).

I have a bad feeling that whatever is made about either OKC or Columbine is going to end up biased or misinformed in some ways. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if a series on the latter is considered unmarketable and subsequently scrapped considering how mass shootings keep happening every couple of months. Doesn't help that a lot of those mass shootings are copycats of Eric and Dylan either.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


"Former Army Sgt. William Dilly testified that McVeigh was a top soldier with a weakness for Pop Tarts and the Buffalo Bills football team."

"He was charming at times, a young man who admired fairness. He loved strawberry Pop-Tarts. Friends and Army comrades said McVeigh was all of those things before he dropped out of their lives more than three years before the Oklahoma City bombing."

"Capt. James Rodriguez made McVeigh laugh when he recalled him as a generous soldier -- but one who didn't like to share strawberry Pop-Tarts sent from home."




Apparently Timmy was a wee bit stingy with his strawberry Poptarts!  

But I will say Toaster Strudel is SO much better then Poptarts! Poptarts are just horribly nasty. Toaster Strudel was around back then, so I refuse to believe that Tim actually preferred PopTarts over Toaster Strudel. This I can not accept! It had to have been that simple fact of Poptarts not needing refrigeration, while Strudel needs to be kept frozen. I will accept no other explanation!

But seriously Poptarts make me wanna gag.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


"Former Army Sgt. William Dilly testified that McVeigh was a top soldier with a weakness for Pop Tarts and the Buffalo Bills football team."

"He was charming at times, a young man who admired fairness. He loved strawberry Pop-Tarts. Friends and Army comrades said McVeigh was all of those things before he dropped out of their lives more than three years before the Oklahoma City bombing."

"Capt. James Rodriguez made McVeigh laugh when he recalled him as a generous soldier -- but one who didn't like to share strawberry Pop-Tarts sent from home."




Apparently Timmy was a wee bit stingy with his strawberry Poptarts!  

But I will say Toaster Strudel is SO much better then Poptarts! Poptarts are just horribly nasty. Toaster Strudel was around back then, so I refuse to believe that Tim actually preferred PopTarts over Toaster Strudel. This I can not accept! It had to have been that simple fact of Poptarts not needing refrigeration, while Strudel needs to be kept frozen. I will accept no other explanation!

But seriously Poptarts make me wanna gag.

This is what I believe too because pop tarts were and are revolting.

My mom would buy toaster strudel on rare occasions.

Screamingophelia wrote:

This is what I believe too because pop tarts were and are revolting.

My mom would buy toaster strudel on rare occasions.

That OR maybe he was simply looking at it from a survivalist's perspective.  Cause those bastards would probably have a decent shelf life.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Poptarts are just horribly nasty. Toaster Strudel was around back then, so I refuse to believe that Tim actually preferred PopTarts over Toaster Strudel. This I can not accept! It had to have been that simple fact of Poptarts not needing refrigeration, while Strudel needs to be kept frozen. I will accept no other explanation!

But seriously Poptarts make me wanna gag.

Well, i'm glad i never had a Poptart.

Halcyon666 wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Poptarts are just horribly nasty. Toaster Strudel was around back then, so I refuse to believe that Tim actually preferred PopTarts over Toaster Strudel. This I can not accept! It had to have been that simple fact of Poptarts not needing refrigeration, while Strudel needs to be kept frozen. I will accept no other explanation!

But seriously Poptarts make me wanna gag.

Well, i'm glad i never had a Poptart.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  BAHAHAH! I may be a little bias, but nothing holds a candle to my beloved Toaster Strudel.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An informal agreement by a coroner not to conduct an autopsy on Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh apparently will stand after a federal judge ruled Monday he had no jurisdiction.

McVeigh, convicted of killing 168 people in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, is in a federal prison in Terre Haute, Indiana, and is scheduled for execution May 16.

McVeigh's attorneys asked U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch to approve an informal agreement under which the Vigo County, Indiana, Coroner Susan Amos agreed not to conduct any "invasive procedure" on McVeigh following his execution.
 
After listening to presentations from McVeigh's attorneys, prosecutors and the Vigo County attorney, Matsch said he had no objection to the plan but had no jurisdiction.

"My jurisdiction ends when Timothy McVeigh ends," said Matsch, who presided over McVeigh's case on a change of venue from Oklahoma.

Under the agreement, on the day of his execution McVeigh will disrobe for a visual examination through a window of his death row cell for any signs of physical abuse. The coroner has said autopsy results could be used to defend lawsuits filed by death-row inmates who allege mistreatment or abuse.

McVeigh also agreed to sign a statement that he has not been abused in custody. If he refuses to sign it or claims he was abused, an autopsy will be performed.

The coroner will examine the body again after McVeigh's execution, taking photographs and X-rays if necessary. If Amos finds evidence of abuse, she could then perform an autopsy if McVeigh's attorney approves.

McVeigh, 32, an Army veteran of the Gulf War, ended all appeals of his death sentence in December, but said he opposed "the planned mutilation of my corpse."

McVeigh attorney Rob Nigh told reporters before court convened Monday that McVeigh opposed an autopsy for ethical and philosophical reasons.

After Matsch ruled he had no jurisdiction, Nigh said McVeigh would not take the issue to another court.

Federal officials told CNN that they have no rules set up to cover autopsies because the last federal execution was a hanging in 1963.

"We don't have any protocol on this," said one official.

Vigo County attorney Timothy Fears said that under Indiana law a county coroner may conduct an autopsy in the case of an "unnatural death" -- including an execution -- but does not have to. He argued the federal court should honor the coroner's discretion under state law.

McVeigh's other attorney, Nathan Chambers, told CNN there is no standard for autopsy in federal executions because the last federal execution occurred 38 years ago.

"This is new territory," Chambers said. The issue is complicated, he said, because federal rules say autopsy is to be handled in accordance with the law where the sentence was imposed. The sentence was imposed in Colorado, but it will be carried out in Indiana.

"Even more complex is the question as to what extent a local coroner has jurisdiction on federal property," Chambers said, adding that there is no federal coroner.

McVeigh was convicted of murder, conspiracy and weapons-related charges in the April 19, 1995, bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]





McVeigh's will.

Tim was VERY adamant about not wanting an autopsy performed on him. He even took it to court and actually won out on that issue.  There are many conspiracies surrounding "WHY" Tim was so against having an autopsy done on him.



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Also here is a link to the PDF file agreement Tim made with the coroner.

Just saw on Tumblr someone saying that the correct pronunciation of Timothy McVeigh was Timothy McBae!  

Yet I detest that fucking word!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Yet I detest that fucking word!

Same.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


"To: All attorneys assigned to U.S. vs. McVeigh

From: Tim McVeigh
Date: November 24, 1996
Re: Defense strategy

As official notice, let it be known that I do not approve of a trial strategy in which Terry Nichols is attacked, blamed, or otherwise implicated in any crimes. Further, I do not approve of pointing the finger of responsibility at anyone else who I know is not responsible or is in no way deserving of such scrutiny.

I have relayed this wish orally for 18 months not only concerning Terry Nichols, but also addressing the “foreign” investigations and the “neo-nazi” investigations. My oral requests have been basically ignored for the past 18 months and it is only recently that Judge Matsch has forced the defense into partial compliance with my wish. However, the defense still tries to ignore my wishes/demands where Terry Nichols is concerned.

I will not allow you to coerce me into lowering my moral and ethical values to that of attorneys and lawyers."





A November 24, 1996 letter McVeigh wrote to his lawyers stating his displeasure of them continuing to look for other people who may have, and likely were involved with the planning of and the actual bombing. He had been fighting with his lead attorney Stephen Jones about this for many months.

McVeigh wanted nothing found or investigated that would/could have taken the blame off himself, or lessened his "Lone Wolf" narrative.

So many conspiracies.   Also SO many questions that need answered. Still so many things that just don't add up.   But it's clear McVeigh didn't do this alone.

No matter that he mostly took the fall for it all,  there's just not a doubt in my mind that he protected the other people involved for whatever reason.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

But it's clear McVeigh didn't do this alone. 

Well of course; Terry Nichols was very obviously also involved.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

But it's clear McVeigh didn't do this alone. 

Well of course; Terry Nichols was very obviously also involved.

LOL!  I should have made my comment clearer! I think MANY more were involved besides Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

But it's clear McVeigh didn't do this alone. 

Well of course; Terry Nichols was very obviously also involved.

LOL!  I should have made my comment clearer! I think MANY more were involved besides Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier.

Who else do you think was involved? You've mentioned the possibility of a conspiracy of some sort - could you elaborate a bit on this? If you're not big on the conspiracy angle, who else do you think was in on it?

QuestionMark wrote:

Who else do you think was involved? You've mentioned the possibility of a conspiracy of some sort - could you elaborate a bit on this? If you're not big on the conspiracy angle, who else do you think was in on it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Oh no I fully believe there was some sort of conspiracy/cover up going on. BUT the bigger question is just who was involved, and who had prior knowledge?  There is evidence pointing in all directions, from FBI/ATF among other government agents/informants that had infiltrated the different White Supremacists, White Separatists, and other Militia type groups that McVeigh was semi involved with. Such as the Aryan Republican Army(ARA), Aryan Nation(AN), National Alliance(NA), Elohim City(EC), etc.  There is also evidence that would lead you to believe that McVeigh himself was a Black Op working for the government to spy on these very groups. 

There is also significant evidence pointing to the fact the FBI/ATF had been warned by one informant of an impending attack in the months/weeks before the bombing that specifically named the Murrah building as a potential target(among others). This informant was Carol Howe, who was a deep plant in the Aryan Republican Army(ARA) and Elohim City(EC). Her FBI/ATF "handlers" more or less ignored her reports. There is a good amount of evidence that the FBI/ATF had prior knowledge other then Carol's reports, yet still did nothing to stop the attack. Instead there were some FBI/ATF workers who got word to NOT go to work the day of the bombing. 

Then there was the high-tech research company Calspan that did research for the government and the Military. Just google Operation Alliance, NORTHSTAR, and PATCON. There was definitely some shady ass shit going on there. McVeigh was working at Burns Security as a night guard when he stumbled upon some shit at their facility. How this all tied into the bombing is a mixed up mess and only gets more crazy depending on which angle you look at it from. 

There is the whole fiasco of Kenneth Trentadue being mistaken for ARA member and bank robber Richard Guthrie who may have had direct connections to McVeigh and the bombing. But that is a WHOLE new ballpark to get into. One that would take several days to explain. Just google Oklahoma City Bombing and Jesse or Kenneth Trentadue and it will bring up everything. Kenneth Trentadue was tortured then murdered in prison. Then they tried to make it look like he had committed suicide by hanging himself. Jesse Trentadue is his brother who is also a lawyer who is hell bent on trying to find the truth on why his brother was murdered and how it all ties into the Oklahoma City bombing.

But just to sum it up. The FBI thought Kenneth Trentadue was the ARA member/bank robber Richard Guthrie, who had ties to McVeigh and likely knew or even participated in the bombing. So they tortured him for info, then killed him. After realizing they had the wrong person, they covered it up by trying to make it look like a suicide. The Trentadue family wouldn't believe it and found out the truth. McVeigh himself even contacted Jesse after his brother's murder and told him that Kenneth had looked almost exactly like Richard Guthrie, even down to a very similar tattoo on the same arm. The murder of Trentadue is still an ongoing legal case that Jesse Trentadue is involved in to this day. The Trentadue family was awarded over a million dollars from a lawsuit. Jesse said he didn't want hush money. He just wanted to know why his brother was murdered, why it had been covered up, and how it all seemed to come back full circle to Tim McVeigh and the bombing. I am still actively following Trentadue's case as well.

But seriously the list literally goes on and on and on. This rabbit hole is seemingly endless, with lots of twists and turns. The case is a breeding ground for conspiracies. But honestly a few of them make sense if you are familiar with the case and the trial that followed, which turned into a HUGE clusterfuck of EPIC proportions might I add! They may have moved McVeigh's trail from Oklahoma to Denver, but there was no way in hell he was ever going to get a fair trial.  His defense team had more leaks then the Titanic after it hit the Iceberg. His main lawyer Stephen Jones was a media hound and loved getting cozy with the press, no matter that his client was getting screwed over with almost everything they reported. Coupled with the fact that for whatever reasons Tim himself would never really give them the truth. He would hint at this, or say something that made sense, then would completely deny it later on. He even failed a Polygraph test when asked if others had been involved besides Nichols and Fortier, he showed clear deception on the test. Yet he would never admit it, saying the test was flawed.  

But if you follow the evidence and facts then one conspiracy will lead into an even bigger one, until you realize that the FBI & ATF covered up, conveniently lost, misplaced, denied the existence of, etc. A LOT of evidence regarding McVeigh and the case. Including security footage that would prove if McVeigh was truly alone when he parked the Ryder truck in front of the building. Also to add there are like 24 witnesses that reported a second man fitting John Doe 2's description(who likely was a government plant/informant) being with McVeigh that day. Yet we all know that after a brief search John Doe 2 was said to have never existed at all. Also the FBI and Government sealed all McVeigh's Military/Medical records and refused to release them to McVeigh's attorneys, even though they were ordered to by the court during his trial. Still to this day his full Military/Medical records are sealed and beyond any FOIA requests. Very little info of his Military medical records is available to the public.   

But if you are truly interested in the case, let me suggest a book to you called Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh, by Wendy Painting.  Wendy's book is the most in depth, detailed account of McVeigh's life and the bombing its self that I have come across to date. In it she goes over a vast amount of info, including all the main conspiracies. She spent years going through every bit of info and evidence related to the trial and McVeigh. So I consider her book a must read.

In my honest opinion the entire case is just a tangled web of lies, half-truths, and cover-ups. This is why I am almost obsessed with it again. But sadly I doubt we will ever know the full truth of what happened, or who all was involved and for what purpose. Also McVeigh himself as a person, just intrigues me.


There are a few versions of McVeigh that confuse most people.

1. He was just a solider who got fucked up by things he did in the war and came home fucking pissed off at his government. Then lost himself to paranoia and conspiracy theories, further aggravated by episodes like Rudy Ridge, and Waco. He was suffering from mental issues like PTSD, and possible even GWS(Gulf War Syndrome), along with a few others. So he decided to lash out at his government that he now hated.

2. He was a Government Op/informant who had been "Sheep Dipped" and used to spy on the very groups that he ended up becoming involved with after he "supposedly" left the Army, and somehow he became more in tuned to these groups then his own government. So he became a traitor to his country.

3. He was a Government Op used to do a false flag operation that would make these Militia/White Supremacist/White Separatists groups targets. So they could go in and get rid of them.    

4. Any combination of the first three! 



I hope this was enough of an elaboration for now. I could go more in depth, as this was just spouted from the top of my head.    But as I said before the case is a hot mess. But one that draws you in.

This ties into my earlier long ass post!

Around August of 1995, Tim's lawyers had gotten sick of all the inconsistencies in his story. So they had him take a polygraph test. He failed it. The guy who gave McVeigh the test named Tim Domgard said that he had no doubt that McVeigh was lying about others being involved, and would take their name or names to his grave. 

Timmy was apparently quite livid when he was told that he failed the polygraph. In letters to his attorneys he said-
                                                       

                                                  -Things in bold taken from Wendy Paintings book, pages 416/417-

"To rest on these polygraph results is not an option, because somehow they are wrong. I give my word on my most sacred honor that I am telling the truth. I will submit to anything to prove my word to you, for the trust of my legal team is really all that I have left.

I am absolutely, psychologically in a tailspin. If I cannot gain your full trust, then I have very few unpleasant options left. I will submit to further polygraphs, Sodium Pentothal, hypnosis, or even fucking torture to recover the honor and integrity that I have lost today.

I admit that I cannot explain the results, but I am adamant that they are flawed and wrong. I cannot live with these results, period.  I am betrayed, bitter, and on the literal verge of psychosis. I will not face anyone who thinks I am untruthful."


McVeigh became obsessed with this failed test. Saying that he would be trying to see which of his lawyers didn't trust him anymore. He raged once saying that he would "hit the next motherfucker who asked him where he parked his getaway car, soo hard that their mama's gonna get a blackeye!"

He also told his lead lawyer Stephen Jones that the problem was that Jones kept showing up with a "new and improved list of the most eligible co-conspirators" and that the problem would naturally resolve itself once Jones ran out of "names of the living." McVeigh continued, " I'll suck it up if necessary- but just know that it makes me want to smack you".



I laughed so damn hard when I read that!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Oh no I fully believe there was some sort of conspiracy/cover up going on. BUT the bigger question is just who was involved, and who had prior knowledge?  There is evidence pointing in all directions, from FBI/ATF among other government agents/informants that had infiltrated the different White Supremacists, White Separatists, and other Militia type groups that McVeigh was semi involved with. Such as the Aryan Republican Army(ARA), Aryan Nation(AN), National Alliance(NA), Elohim City(EC), etc.  There is also evidence that would lead you to believe that McVeigh himself was a Black Op working for the government to spy on these very groups. 

I can tell there's going to be a lot to unpack now that I've asked the question formally. But I'm fine with that.   


So far I'm with you, and everything seems plausible thus far. 

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

There is also significant evidence pointing to the fact the FBI/ATF had been warned by one informant of an impending attack in the months/weeks before the bombing that specifically named the Murrah building as a potential target(among others). This informant was Carol Howe, who was a deep plant in the Aryan Republican Army(ARA) and Elohim City(EC). Her FBI/ATF "handlers" more or less ignored her reports. There is a good amount of evidence that the FBI/ATF had prior knowledge other then Carol's reports, yet still did nothing to stop the attack. Instead there were some FBI/ATF workers who got word to NOT go to work the day of the bombing. 

Now this is explainable IMO. The Murrah building has been a target for far-right terrorists since at least the early 80's, possibly even earlier considering that right-wing terrorists were considering bombing federal buildings since the publication of The Turner Diaries (the very same book McVeigh took partial inspiration from). And as for FBI/ATF getting warnings about a potential attack, it was, after all, the anniversary of the Waco siege, and McVeigh was far from the only one disgusted by the government handling of the situation.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

The FBI thought Kenneth Trentadue was the ARA member/bank robber Richard Guthrie, who had ties to McVeigh and likely knew or even participated in the bombing. So they tortured him for info, then killed him. After realizing they had the wrong person, they covered it up by trying to make it look like a suicide. The Trentadue family wouldn't believe it and found out the truth. McVeigh himself even contacted Jesse after his brother's murder and told him that Kenneth had looked almost exactly like Richard Guthrie, even down to a very similar tattoo on the same arm. The murder of Trentadue is still an ongoing legal case that Jesse Trentadue is involved in to this day. The Trentadue family was awarded over a million dollars from a lawsuit. Jesse said he didn't want hush money. He just wanted to know why his brother was murdered, why it had been covered up, and how it all seemed to come back full circle to Tim McVeigh and the bombing. I am still actively following Trentadue's case as well.

Some cursory googling suggests that you're right about this. Seems like someone must've really had it in for Guthrie considering there were mysterious circumstances surrounding his death as well.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

They may have moved McVeigh's trail from Oklahoma to Denver, but there was no way in hell he was ever going to get a fair trial.

Let's be honest here, you kill as many people McVeigh did, fair goes right out the window. I doubt Nikolas Cruz is going to get a properly fair trial either.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

But if you follow the evidence and facts then one conspiracy will lead into an even bigger one, until you realize that the FBI & ATF covered up, conveniently lost, misplaced, denied the existence of, etc. A LOT of evidence regarding McVeigh and the case. Including security footage that would prove if McVeigh was truly alone when he parked the Ryder truck in front of the building. Also to add there are like 24 witnesses that reported a second man fitting John Doe 2's description(who likely was a government plant/informant) being with McVeigh that day. Yet we all know that after a brief search John Doe 2 was said to have never existed at all. Also the FBI and Government sealed all McVeigh's Military/Medical records and refused to release them to McVeigh's attorneys, even though they were ordered to by the court during his trial. Still to this day his full Military/Medical records are sealed and beyond any FOIA requests. Very little info of his Military medical records is available to the public.   

It does seem kind of odd to me that the feds would do the things you said, but it doesn't convince me that they're "in on it", and I'm also still not convinced of John Doe [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s existence (or at least participant in the crime). Now that you bring it up I think the issue the feds had with releasing McVeigh's medical records during his military service might be evidence that he had some sort of problem that the government neglected to treat (like Gulf War Syndrome or PTSD like you mention), just like the school administration of Stoneman Douglass resisting the release of Nikolas Cruz's records. 

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

But if you are truly interested in the case, let me suggest a book to you called Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh, by Wendy Painting.  Wendy's book is the most in depth, detailed account of McVeigh's life and the bombing its self that I have come across to date. In it she goes over a vast amount of info, including all the main conspiracies. She spent years going through every bit of info and evidence related to the trial and McVeigh. So I consider her book a must read.

I'll take it under consideration but it might be years before I ever get the opportunity or desire to pick it up. I'm not much of a reader you see, more of a guy who likes to shoot at aliens from behind a computer screen. 

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

There are a few versions of McVeigh that confuse most people.

1. He was just a solider who got fucked up by things he did in the war and came home fucking pissed off at his government. Then lost himself to paranoia and conspiracy theories, further aggravated by episodes like Rudy Ridge, and Waco. He was suffering from mental issues like PTSD, and possible even GWS(Gulf War Syndrome), along with a few others. So he decided to lash out at his government that he now hated.

2. He was a Government Op/informant who had been "Sheep Dipped" and used to spy on the very groups that he ended up becoming involved with after he "supposedly" left the Army, and somehow he became more in tuned to these groups then his own government. So he became a traitor to his country.

3. He was a Government Op used to do a false flag operation that would make these Militia/White Supremacist/White Separatists groups targets. So they could go in and get rid of them.    

I actually think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is a plausible explanation. You might wonder why since I'm not really a conspiracy theory guy, so my reasoning here is that the kind of event that happened in option two actually has happened before, but in a different way. After World War One, when Adolf Hitler needed a job, he was hired by a security firm to infiltrate, investigate, and asses the threat of a small extremist group known as the German Worker's Party. Adolf abandoned his role as an informant to lead the party, change the name to the one we're familiar with, and the rest is history. 

Now that I think about it McVeigh and Hitler have quite a bit in common.   

Anyways, number three is the one which I don't think I'll ever be convinced of until airtight proof of it came out. I say this because if the government really did plan the bombing as a false flag, it would've almost definitely came out by now. It's been demonstrated time and time again that the government has repeatedly failed to keep its dirty laundry under wraps. All the cases I just linked to were a hell of a lot less severe than an outright fabricated terrorist attack. 

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I hope this was enough of an elaboration for now. I could go more in depth, as this was just spouted from the top of my head.    But as I said before the case is a hot mess. But one that draws you in.

I'd like to extend my thanks for going so in depth for me. You certainly opened my eyes about a lot of things I didn't really take note of before, and made me reconsider some notions I had about the case. It was pretty cool of you to write all this up.

QuestionMark wrote:

I can tell there's going to be a lot to unpack now that I've asked the question formally. But I'm fine with that.   

I'll take it under consideration but it might be years before I ever get the opportunity or desire to pick it up. I'm not much of a reader you see, more of a guy who likes to shoot at aliens from behind a computer screen. 

 I'd like to extend my thanks for going so in depth for me. You certainly opened my eyes about a lot of things I didn't really take note of before, and made me reconsider some notions I had about the case. It was pretty cool of you to write all this up.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Indeed there is A LOT of info!

As for you saying you don't like to read much, I now feel that I must offer you a heartfelt apology. I kinda hit you with both barrels with that reply didn't I?    I can imagine you thinking to yourself "Damn this bitch is long winded!"     

But to be honest that was just the super condensed shit from the top of my head. If I truly wanted to, I could likely talk/type you into a coma on this topic!

Also no problem, I don't claim to know everything about the case but I do know a fair amount, and will keep digging until I know what there is to know.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I can tell there's going to be a lot to unpack now that I've asked the question formally. But I'm fine with that.   

I'll take it under consideration but it might be years before I ever get the opportunity or desire to pick it up. I'm not much of a reader you see, more of a guy who likes to shoot at aliens from behind a computer screen. 

 I'd like to extend my thanks for going so in depth for me. You certainly opened my eyes about a lot of things I didn't really take note of before, and made me reconsider some notions I had about the case. It was pretty cool of you to write all this up.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Indeed there is A LOT of info!

As for you saying you don't like to read much, I now feel that I must offer you a heartfelt apology. I kinda hit you with both barrels with that reply didn't I?    I can imagine you thinking to yourself "Damn this bitch is long winded!"     

Nah it's fine, I liked the post quite a bit. 

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I can tell there's going to be a lot to unpack now that I've asked the question formally. But I'm fine with that.   

I'll take it under consideration but it might be years before I ever get the opportunity or desire to pick it up. I'm not much of a reader you see, more of a guy who likes to shoot at aliens from behind a computer screen. 

 I'd like to extend my thanks for going so in depth for me. You certainly opened my eyes about a lot of things I didn't really take note of before, and made me reconsider some notions I had about the case. It was pretty cool of you to write all this up.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Indeed there is A LOT of info!

As for you saying you don't like to read much, I now feel that I must offer you a heartfelt apology. I kinda hit you with both barrels with that reply didn't I?    I can imagine you thinking to yourself "Damn this bitch is long winded!"     

Nah it's fine, I liked the post quite a bit. 

LOL! I'll admit I can get a wee bit carried away with this type of thing at times.  But still glad to share my wealth of semi useless knowledge.

Also just wanted to list the books on Tim McVeigh/Oklahoma City that I currently own. Here they are in no particular order.



American Terrorist  -By Lou Michel & Dan Herbeck

All American Monster  -By Brandon Stickney

Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh  -By Wendy Painting

Others Unknown  -By Stephan Jones & Peter Israel

Secrets Worth Dying For: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer & Jeffery William Paul

Deadly Secrets: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer

Final Report on the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By The Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee

One of Ours: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Richard A. Serrano



EDIT- Had to add the two newest books that I just bought on the subject.

Oklahoma City : What the Investigation Missed -- And Why It Still Matters  -By Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles

Oklahoma City: Day One: A Detailed Account of the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By Michele Marie Moore


EDIT- Needed to add another book I just bought. I swear I'm not obsessed!  

Freedom's End: Conspiracy in Oklahoma  -By James D. Nichols & Robert S. Papovich


Also James Nichols is Terry Nichols brother. He was also considered a suspect in the attack at one point, but was later cleared. I have no idea how I missed his book.    But I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say about Tim and the bombing.

Another conspiracy to look through in regards to Timmy McVeigh is the simple fact that he was being seen while in prison by good Ol' Dr Jolyon(Jolly)West and Dr. John Smith.

Just one more thing involved with the case that make you scratch your head.

I'm not much on Alex Jones but this info is proven, documented facts, and I do agree that truth is stranger then fiction in some cases.

This is also proven facts. The FBI still to this day refuses to release security cam footage of the bombing that shows who was in the Ryder truck with McVeigh.  They admitted to having it, but still will not release it to the general public.

There is fair reason to suspect their refusal is due to the possibilities/probabilities of an actual FBI/ATF undercover agent being with him, or another such informant they wanted to protect the identity of.

Round and round the conspiracies/coverups go, where it stops no one knows!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Who else do you think was involved? You've mentioned the possibility of a conspiracy of some sort - could you elaborate a bit on this? If you're not big on the conspiracy angle, who else do you think was in on it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Oh no I fully believe there was some sort of conspiracy/cover up going on. BUT the bigger question is just who was involved, and who had prior knowledge?  There is evidence pointing in all directions, from FBI/ATF among other government agents/informants that had infiltrated the different White Supremacists, White Separatists, and other Militia type groups that McVeigh was semi involved with. Such as the Aryan Republican Army(ARA), Aryan Nation(AN), National Alliance(NA), Elohim City(EC), etc.  There is also evidence that would lead you to believe that McVeigh himself was a Black Op working for the government to spy on these very groups. 

There is also significant evidence pointing to the fact the FBI/ATF had been warned by one informant of an impending attack in the months/weeks before the bombing that specifically named the Murrah building as a potential target(among others). This informant was Carol Howe, who was a deep plant in the Aryan Republican Army(ARA) and Elohim City(EC). Her FBI/ATF "handlers" more or less ignored her reports. There is a good amount of evidence that the FBI/ATF had prior knowledge other then Carol's reports, yet still did nothing to stop the attack. Instead there were some FBI/ATF workers who got word to NOT go to work the day of the bombing. 

Then there was the high-tech research company Calspan that did research for the government and the Military. Just google Operation Alliance, NORTHSTAR, and PATCON. There was definitely some shady ass shit going on there. McVeigh was working at Burns Security as a night guard when he stumbled upon some shit at their facility. How this all tied into the bombing is a mixed up mess and only gets more crazy depending on which angle you look at it from.

McVeigh wasnt racist or nationalist right wing, he was a liberal (as in the actual meaning of liberal not the modern usage) who disliked any form of big government.
"Reports got ignored" is always a shady accusation and sounds of conspiracy theory, no federal agent is going to ignore reports of an incoming attack, especially not if Uncle Sams bureaucracy is threatend.

Sounds like you fell for left wing propaganda/conspiracy theory.

imgview wrote:

"Reports got ignored" is always a shady accusation and sounds of conspiracy theory, no federal agent is going to ignore reports of an incoming attack, especially not if Uncle Sams bureaucracy is threatend.

Sounds like you fell for left wing propaganda/conspiracy theory.

I have researched this case for a number of years, and I fell for nothing besides being able to look at everything, all evidence, etc. from every angle possible. Even a newbie could look at the case as a whole and know things just don't add up. AND the main reason things don't add up is because there were many fabrications going on from just about everyone surrounding the case. McVeigh himself was a known liar who would say one thing, then turn back around and say something completely different. He sure kept his legal team on their toes with his various tales.

But If you are familiar with the case at all, then you will know there is clear evidence showing that the FBI/ATF did some very shady things during the course of McVeigh's trial. Then the government refused to release his Military/Medical records to McVeigh's defense team, even when ordered to by the judge overseeing the case. They withheld thousands of documents, also they still to this day flat out refuse to release the security video footage from a number of different buildings that show who was driving the Ryder truck that morning, and who else was with McVeigh. They do have those tapes, admitted to having them, but said they couldn't be released because it would/could jeopardize "National Security".

Now think to yourself "Why would they refuse to release footage that would have helped them convict McVeigh?" UNLESS the footage they refuse to release in fact shows someone other then McVeigh, or shows someone else with him that they didn't want to blow the cover of. There were so many government agent plants/informants working undercover and neck deep in all this shit that its not funny. I mean they were literally choking on shit they were so deep into this mess.

But unfortunately Tim never came clean and told the entire story. So all we have is the evidence left behind to shift through. AND all that evidence points to a very different story then the "Lone Wolf" tale that Tim preferred and the government supported.

O

imgview wrote:

"Reports got ignored" is always a shady accusation and sounds of conspiracy theory, no federal agent is going to ignore reports of an incoming attack, especially not if Uncle Sams bureaucracy is threatend. 

I guess you’ve never researched 9/11 very much.  You should watch the 9/11 commission hearings and then tell us how federal agents don’t ignore reports of incoming attacks.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

imgview wrote:

"Reports got ignored" is always a shady accusation and sounds of conspiracy theory, no federal agent is going to ignore reports of an incoming attack, especially not if Uncle Sams bureaucracy is threatend.

Sounds like you fell for left wing propaganda/conspiracy theory.

I have researched this case for a number of years, and I fell for nothing besides being able to look at everything, all evidence, etc. from every angle possible. Even a newbie could look at the case as a whole and know things just don't add up. AND the main reason things don't add up is because there were many fabrications going on from just about everyone surrounding the case. McVeigh himself was a known liar who would say one thing, then turn back around and say something completely different. He sure kept his legal team on their toes with his various tales.

But If you are familiar with the case at all, then you will know there is clear evidence showing that the FBI/ATF did some very shady things during the course of McVeigh's trial. Then the government refused to release his Military/Medical records to McVeigh's defense team, even when ordered to by the judge overseeing the case. They withheld thousands of documents, also they still to this day flat out refuse to release the security video footage from a number of different buildings that show who was driving the Ryder truck that morning, and who else was with McVeigh. They do have those tapes, admitted to having them, but said they couldn't be released because it would/could jeopardize "National Security".

Now think to yourself "Why would they refuse to release footage that would have helped them convict McVeigh?" UNLESS the footage they refuse to release in fact shows someone other then McVeigh, or shows someone else with him that they didn't want to blow the cover of. There were so many government agent plants/informants working undercover and neck deep in all this shit that its not funny. I mean they were literally choking on shit they were so deep into this mess.

But unfortunately Tim never came clean and told the entire story. So all we have is the evidence left behind to shift through. AND all that evidence points to a very different story then the "Lone Wolf" tale that Tim preferred and the government supported.

I am sure you read more into the case than I did but I just dont buy into the hole "government let it happen" thing anymore, sorry.
I just think that modern law enforcement, especially on state/federal level, is just a horribly bloated bureaucracy so inefficiency and oddities are to be expected.

imgview wrote:

I am sure you read more into the case than I did but I just dont buy into the hole "government let it happen" thing anymore, sorry.  I just think that modern law enforcement, especially on state/federal level, is just a horribly bloated bureaucracy so inefficiency and oddities are to be expected.

Your last sentence is very true. Which is one reason I question things even more.

Listen everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it just so happens that in this case mine is the whole "government let it happen" thing, is more likely the "government helped it happen" thing. OR at the very least merely allowed it to happen so they could capitalize on the fallout of mass hysterics that would follow, basically using it as a way to lengthen their reach and tighten the reins at the same time.

Which they did.  April 24, 1996 Clinton signed the Anti-terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act. This was the baby form of what the Patriot Act would later become after 9/11. Without those two major attacks happening so close together Bush likely wouldn't have gotten the Patriot Act passed. But the government pretty much played off everyone's fears of future attacks. Only after some of the hysteria calmed down did people start looking more in depth to the Patriot Act, calling foul and questioning it.

Most people are well aware of how corrupt the government is. I for one, would literally put nothing past them at this point. The facts of this case are mixed up with A LOT of misinformation, outright lies, and cover-ups. BUT if you dig you will find tiny bits of truth buried in all the bullshit, and those tiny bits of truth all point to some form of government involvement or monumental government fuck up. Either option is just as scary as the other.

Ultimately at the end of the day to each their own. My intent isn't to browbeat someone into agreeing with me.

That was an intense read, even though most of it was him watching TV.

I hear you on the cold showers dude... I don't care how hot it is outside I at least have to start with some warm water...


I know I always tend to bring up Eric in this thread but it makes me think of him saying in his car "it's a weird feeling knowing you are going to be dead in 2 weeks." and I have to think about people on death row as well. You're still a human being and that HAS to be a weird feeling.

Screamingophelia wrote:

That was an intense read, even though most of it was him watching TV.

I hear you on the cold showers dude... I don't care how hot it is outside I at least have to start with some warm water...  


I know I always tend to bring up Eric in this thread but it makes me think of him saying in his car "it's a weird feeling knowing you are going to be dead in 2 weeks." and I have to think about people on death row as well.  You're still a human being and that HAS to be a weird feeling.

I agree about it being kinda intense and repetitive at the same time. But the amount of times the log says that Tim was huddled up, wrapped up, covered up his head, etc. with his blanket hit me for some reason. I know I am probably reading way to much into it, but it seems to me like he was almost trying to comfort himself. Sorry little Timmy, but that blanket wasn't going to keep you safe, or stop what was coming.

Also can you imagine knowing that your every move was being observed and documented? I wonder what was going through his mind during the times the log said he was staring off at the wall, the ceiling, etc?  Timmy may have been cold or calm on the surface, but I would bet my life his mind was a jumbled mess of everything he refused to let show physically. Even his lead attorney Stephen Jones said that Tim knew he was being watched, and had tried to control his actions and demeanor.


Also I BADLY want to see what was redacted!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

That was an intense read, even though most of it was him watching TV.

I hear you on the cold showers dude... I don't care how hot it is outside I at least have to start with some warm water...  


I know I always tend to bring up Eric in this thread but it makes me think of him saying in his car "it's a weird feeling knowing you are going to be dead in 2 weeks." and I have to think about people on death row as well.  You're still a human being and that HAS to be a weird feeling.

I agree about it being kinda intense and repetitive at the same time. But the amount of times the log says that Tim was huddled up, wrapped up, covered up his head, etc. with his blanket hit me for some reason. I know I am probably reading way to much into it, but it seems to me like he was almost trying to comfort himself. Sorry little Timmy, but that blanket wasn't going to keep you safe, or stop what was coming.

Also can you imagine knowing that your every move was being observed and documented? I wonder what was going through his mind during the times the log said he was staring off at the wall, the ceiling, etc?  Timmy may have been cold or calm on the surface, but I would bet my life his mind was a jumbled mess of everything he refused to let show physically. Even his lead attorney Stephen Jones said that Tim knew he was being watched, and had tried to control his actions and demeanor.


Also I BADLY want to see what was redacted!

Of course my mind went somewhere when I saw the redacted stuff. I have no idea what could’ve been redacted if they talk about everything he does.

Also I don’t think you’re reading too much into the blanket thing. That is really common thing. I know I find myself if I am nervous about something I wrap like a sweater around myself personally think that it’s almost like swaddling a baby, you feel safe.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Listen everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it just so happens that in this case mine is the whole "government let it happen" thing, is more likely the "government helped it happen" thing. OR at the very least merely allowed it to happen so they could capitalize on the fallout of mass hysterics that would follow, basically using it as a way to lengthen their reach and tighten the reins at the same time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not a fan of this particular theory because the government is very bad at keeping secrets. If the bombing was allowed to happen or outright made it happen then I think the truth would've came out.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Listen everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it just so happens that in this case mine is the whole "government let it happen" thing, is more likely the "government helped it happen" thing. OR at the very least merely allowed it to happen so they could capitalize on the fallout of mass hysterics that would follow, basically using it as a way to lengthen their reach and tighten the reins at the same time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not a fan of this particular theory because the government is very bad at keeping secrets. If the bombing was allowed to happen or outright made it happen then I think the truth would've came out.

It still might in the coming years.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Listen everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it just so happens that in this case mine is the whole "government let it happen" thing, is more likely the "government helped it happen" thing. OR at the very least merely allowed it to happen so they could capitalize on the fallout of mass hysterics that would follow, basically using it as a way to lengthen their reach and tighten the reins at the same time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not a fan of this particular theory because the government is very bad at keeping secrets. If the bombing was allowed to happen or outright made it happen then I think the truth would've came out.

It still might in the coming years.  

If it does I'll be busting the popcorn out right alongside you. 

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Listen everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it just so happens that in this case mine is the whole "government let it happen" thing, is more likely the "government helped it happen" thing. OR at the very least merely allowed it to happen so they could capitalize on the fallout of mass hysterics that would follow, basically using it as a way to lengthen their reach and tighten the reins at the same time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not a fan of this particular theory because the government is very bad at keeping secrets. If the bombing was allowed to happen or outright made it happen then I think the truth would've came out.

It still might in the coming years.  

If it does I'll be busting the popcorn out right alongside you.

BAHAH!

I am still working on compiling the material for the post I will be making in the near future about the suspicious suicides/deaths surrounding the case. Especially the death of Kenneth Trentadue, and that of SGT. Terrance Yeakey, among a couple more.

I have A LOT of things to go through and put in order.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am still working on compiling the material for the post I will be making in the near future

Take your time, I am still working on reading all the posts I've missed on this thread. I am running late.

My knowledge about this case is still rather limited, I know the main story but that's all. So I have two questions that may have been asked previously, but:

-Did McVeigh hoped he could get away with it (I don't mean expected, I only mean did he want to)?

-And if so had he plan something to make people know the reasons behind the attack? Because I am not sure when he wrote his letters/manifesto but I always thought that he had written them in prison. If he had never been found and arrested, would he have surrendered? Would he have sent anonymous letters to newspaper? Especially if the attack was misunderstood.

Neah wrote:

My knowledge about this case is still rather limited, I know the main story but that's all. So I have two questions that may have been asked previously, but:

-Did McVeigh hoped he could get away with it (I don't mean expected, I only mean did he want to)?

-And if so had he plan something to make people know the reasons behind the attack? Because I am not sure when he wrote his letters/manifesto but I always thought that he had written them in prison. If he had never been found and arrested, would he have surrendered? Would he have sent anonymous letters to newspaper? Especially if the attack was misunderstood.

To my knowledge case wise, and from different things McVeigh said while alive, I don't think he was opposed to going underground IF he could get away with it. If McVeigh hadn't been pulled over for the missing license plate, then who knows where he would have ended up. He had traveled to almost every U.S. state, had rented numerous storage units in different states(most contained supplies of various types), he had connections all across the U.S. as well.  So in my opinion Tim could have very easily slipped away and would have been near impossible to find had he wanted to disappear. He was a survivalist, he knew how to live off grid. BUT the fact he tried several times to contact a Bail bondsman while in jail leads me to believe he really didn't want to be caught.

But if he had been able to sneak away, and depending on the many different things he is said to have said, then it is possible he would have gone on to plan or participate in another attack of some sort. SO maybe he had intended to get away, lay low for awhile, then pop back up again.

I don't think he would have ever surrendered/turned himself in etc. McVeigh liked his freedom to much. He loved to roam, and lived a fairly nomadic life. BUT I can see him anonymously writing letters to the media in anger if he thought they didn't get what he was trying to bring to their attention.  

Now with all that being said, Tim was smart. He knew the risks. He knew there was a good possibility that he could be caught. No matter what one may believe about the case on whether Tim was set up to take the fall, or he was just picked up by chance, etc. The fact still remains that he knew he could be. SO he had stuffed a envelope full of his propaganda, info on his cause, his beliefs etc. and had it with him. This was found in his car the day he was pulled over. Also Timmy told many stories about how he had wanted to be caught and about that missing license plate. In one he said he took it off to increase the chance of getting caught, in another he said it must have fallen off. Then in yet another story he said someone could have taken it off to set him up.

The main issue with this case is that A LOT of questions were never answered truthfully, if at all. Also the simple fact that for whatever reasons Tim would NEVER be 100% truthful either. OR maybe he was and the story its-self was just so outlandish and far-fetched that no one could/would except it. But it's a fact he liked to drop tiny bits of info and see what his defense team would make of it. He was notorious for saying things that made perfect sense and then later saying he had lied. He would also come out with things that just made no sense whatsoever, and claimed it was the truth.  Honestly I think what really happened is likely buried somewhere deep in between all his stories. It's almost like he would take a tiny bit of true info then surround it with lies. If that makes sense.

Another thing about this case that makes it so hard to follow is that the conspiracy theories often contain more truth and make more sense then the official narrative that the FBI/ATF and the court case ever did.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Also Timmy told many stories about how he had wanted to be caught and about that missing license plate. In one he said he took it off to increase the chance of getting caught

That sounds a bit like a proud man who is so frustrated to have been caught for such a small and silly mistake that he doesn't even want to admit that it was a mistake.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

It's almost like he would take a tiny bit of true info then surround it with lies. If that makes sense.

That's what makes things so frustrating and yet also so fascinating! I find it fascinating to see how people responsible for such horrible things use their image to influence people, or even create a public image. Just like Ted Bundy used his charisma to influence the way people thought, or Breivik who have chosen not to show any regrets.

Ainjel wrote:

O

imgview wrote:

"Reports got ignored" is always a shady accusation and sounds of conspiracy theory, no federal agent is going to ignore reports of an incoming attack, especially not if Uncle Sams bureaucracy is threatend. 

I guess you’ve never researched 9/11 very much.  You should watch the 9/11 commission hearings and then tell us how federal agents don’t ignore reports of incoming attacks.

I think that the overall problem is that there's so much reports that don't lead to anything that something needs to be really outrageous to catch the attention.

I remember reading about watchlists a few years ago when reading about some Muslim terrorist attack where everyone involved was on watchlist and there are ridiculous amounts of people on watchlists.

I think the reports get "ignored" simply because they get overwhelmed with amounts of reports.