Dylan's mental state

Squid wrote:

If I answered this question thoroughly I'd have to explain why I think E&D had a valid point to get across. But to keep it short, as I've said before the very few people who I love are immensely outcasts themselves. It is most likely E&D would understand them and would have been at least good acquaintances at school. My loved ones would have shown them respect and kindness before NBK and I believe E&D would have spared them. If they did so happen to die from cross fire, etc. I can make peace with that. Everyone dies one time or another. I don't think death is the ultimate karma. I don't think death is a bad thing it's a natural thing. And I don't believe in karma do to speak. Gtg now.

And what if they never even had the opportunity to show respect and kindness to E&D? Surely you're aware that E&D didn't even know most of their victims? Would you be at peace if someone you loved who wasn't acquainted with Eric or Dylan at all (thus never had the opportunity to be on friendly terms with them) was violently and deliberately killed by either one of them?

I also have issues with some of your other statements not exactly making sense in context of your argument but would prefer to focus on the above scenario. Genuinely interested in receiving a straightforward response from you.

So I have a question for both sides on this thread.

Let's say a bunch of E&D's friends decided to go the library that day. Zack, Nate, Erik V, Mike etc....do you think they would have shot them or spared them?

I am not sure either way. I don't know if they would have let a giant group of 6 or 7 guys go...but I don't know if they would be able to shoot them.
They thought they could handle the impersonal nature of blowing their friends up, but could they look into their faces and shoot them? I don't know.

Squid wrote:

If I answered this question thoroughly I'd have to explain why I think E&D had a valid point to get across. But to keep it short, as I've said before the very few people who I love are immensely outcasts themselves. It is most likely E&D would understand them and would have been at least good acquaintances at school. My loved ones would have shown them respect and kindness before NBK and I believe E&D would have spared them. If they did so happen to die from cross fire, etc. I can make peace with that. Everyone dies one time or another. I don't think death is the ultimate karma. I don't think death is a bad thing it's a natural thing. And I don't believe in karma do to speak. Gtg now.

You do know they had full intentions to actually blow up their school and kill over 200 people, right?  You do realize they told their FRIENDS "IF you live" in the basement tapes, right?  For every person they "spared" they murdered someone in cold blood.  Your defense of them has become borderline Tumblr fangirlish,  and you back up your positions and "debate" like a sassy 13 year old who doesn't get their way.

Lizpuff wrote:

So I have a question for both sides on this thread.

Let's say a bunch of E&D's friends decided to go the library that day.  Zack, Nate, Erik V, Mike etc....do you think they would have shot them or spared them?  

I am not sure either way.  I don't know if they would have let a giant group of 6 or 7 guys go...but I don't know if they would be able to shoot them.  
They thought they could handle the impersonal nature of blowing their friends up, but could they look into their faces and shoot them?  I don't know.

I don't think they would have done it.

Squid wrote:

If I answered this question thoroughly I'd have to explain why I think E&D had a valid point to get across.

Speaking of which, while I personally condemn every single thing about Columbine, I have read serious academic research that argued that E/D's valid point was a political statement about the dehumanization of public high schools, and the act itself was a political act of defiance against the larger US educational system, ad nauseum. That's not to say I agree with that, but it's interesting to note that some academics have had the same conversations that we are having here in this forum. I suppose one could come up with all sorts of "valid" points about why E/D did what they did.

I see it simply as two mentally ill youth who both, to certain degrees, wanted to die, and in the process say a resounding "FUCK YOU" to as many people as possible before cashing in their chips...this includes institutions, family, friends, acquaintances, and people unknown to them for the foreseeable future as long as their atrocities are recounted and remembered.

Gctiger wrote:

You do know they had full intentions to actually blow up their school and kill over 200 people, right?  You do realize they told their FRIENDS "IF you live" in the basement tapes, right?  For every person they "spared" they murdered someone in cold blood.  Your defense of them has become borderline Tumblr fangirlish,  and you back up your positions and "debate" like a sassy 13 year old who doesn't get their way.

Thank you. It's interesting to hear someone try and justify the deaths of 13 innocent people with their own warped logic.

Lizpuff wrote:

So I have a question for both sides on this thread.

Let's say a bunch of E&D's friends decided to go the library that day.  Zack, Nate, Erik V, Mike etc....do you think they would have shot them or spared them?  

I believe that all of them would have been spared. They let John Savage go and they weren't even exactly friends with him.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Speaking of which, while I personally condemn every single thing about Columbine, I have read serious academic research that argued that E/D's valid point was a political statement about the dehumanization of public high schools, and the act itself was a political act of defiance against the larger US educational system, ad nauseum. That's not to say I agree with that, but it's interesting to note that some academics have had the same conversations that we are having here in this forum. I suppose one could come up with all sorts of "valid" points about why E/D did what they did.

That is interesting, but their hate wasn't simply bound to their high school. It was for humanity in general, so not exactly sure if that theory stacks up. And in relation to the "valid points" for them committing the massacre, I guess everyone has their own personal reasons for doing what they do, but did they actually have proper grounds to kill and harm these people? I think people looking at this from a reasonable perspective would say no.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see it simply as two mentally ill youth who both, to certain degrees, wanted to die, and in the process say a resounding "FUCK YOU" to as many people as possible before cashing in their chips...this includes institutions, family, friends, acquaintances, and people unknown to them for the foreseeable future as long as their atrocities are recounted and remembered.

Yes, I very much agree with this statement.

[quote="bubbles"]

Gctiger wrote:

I believe that all of them would have been spared. They let John Savage go and they weren't even exactly friends with him.

I agree. Dylan also spared Tim Castle, if I am right he was a friend of one of their friends (can´t remember his name)

Squid wrote:

I don't think death is a bad thing it's a natural thing.

Being shot to death or blown up as a teenager is not natural. It's murder. A natural death is when your body shuts down from natural causes.

Off Topic: To everyone posting in this thread, Please try and be civil to each other. This thread is beginning to get a little out of hand. Not everyone has the same views and/or opinions and you don't have to be mean to people to get your point across.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I said I think DEATH is a natural thing. I did not say anything about HOW you die. I had to keep my response short. I was trying to touch upon every other comment previously on the thread as well. Mostly to the other user talking about bad karma.

I have to say that I think some people on this board don't know, don't understand or maybe don't care what events in our lives made some of us become Columbiners in the first place.I was put through years of abuse by my classmates.Yes, abuse. Not just teasing or fun. wasn't a few jocks,preps and cheerleaders.It was most people in the school.
Everyone crapped on my best friend and I and enjoyed doing it.
My best friend who I wanted to do the shooting with back then taken by 3 popular boys , gang raped repeatedly, then they took her clothes , and she was forced to walk 6 miles naked and bleeding for help.
The boys got away scott free with this.Instead my friend and  her family were threatened and harassed until they became so scared they pressured her to drop the charges.
When she went back to school she was taunted unmercifully about the rape by almost everyone.
Graffiti  making fun of the rape appeared all over school.Nobody would help her so 3 weeks into her senior year she quit.She is still extrememly sympathetic to E &D today.
Before you judge all of us as bad people or stupid or just not having any morals, perhaps you should pause and think Hey, maybe there's a story there.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I have to say that I think some people on this board don't know, don't understand or maybe don't care what events in our lives made some of us become Columbiners in the first place.I was put through years of abuse by my classmates.Yes, abuse. Not just teasing or fun. wasn't a few jocks,preps and cheerleaders.It was most people in the school.
Everyone crapped on my best friend and I and enjoyed doing it.
My best friend who I wanted to do the shooting with back then taken by 3 popular boys , gang raped repeatedly, then they took her clothes , and she was forced to walk 6 miles naked and bleeding for help.
The boys got away scott free with this.Instead my friend and  her family were threatened and harassed until they became so scared they pressured her to drop the charges.
When she went back to school she was taunted unmercifully about the rape by almost everyone.
Graffiti  making fun of the rape appeared all over school.Nobody would help her so 3 weeks into her senior year she quit.She is still extrememly sympathetic to E &D today.
Before you judge all of us as bad people or stupid or just not having any morals, perhaps you should pause and think Hey, maybe there's a story there.

^That is awful, but as horrible as those events are, they would still not justify you seeking revenge by killing innocent kids that had nothing to do with the bullying you and your friend experienced (even then, I don't think that killing bullies themselves is a rational way to deal with the problem).

As I keep mentioning over and over again, Eric and Dylan did not even know most of their victims. They were the ones who actually bullied/taunted and killed people who they never even knew before killing them. And they get praised by misguided people as some type of heroes?

We don't even know for sure the extent of the bullying that Eric and Dylan were subjected to. As I've mentioned before, there has been accounts that they bullied and intimidated others prior to columbine. For all the sympathy Eric and Dylan receive for their high school years, they sure seemed to have a fair amount of friends and going by accounts, interacted with many of their classmates without many issues. They both had fairly normal interactions with girls. From what we know, they came from nice families.

They even had a friend who we all know by the name of Robyn Anderson, who actually ensured that the boys got their guns and they repaid her favour by shitting all over her, their families and their friends with their own selfish actions. E&D's friends and Robyn could have potentially died in the cafeteria bombs if everything had gone according to plan, but did that concern Eric and Dylan? Not enough to not go through with their plans.

I'm pretty sure there are kids out there who have gone through way worse things growing up than what Eric or Dylan did, but still didn't use their awful circumstances as an excuse to lash out and gleefully going on a murdering spree, killing innocent people.

bubbles wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I have to say that I think some people on this board don't know, don't understand or maybe don't care what events in our lives made some of us become Columbiners in the first place.I was put through years of abuse by my classmates.Yes, abuse. Not just teasing or fun. wasn't a few jocks,preps and cheerleaders.It was most people in the school.
Everyone crapped on my best friend and I and enjoyed doing it.
My best friend who I wanted to do the shooting with back then taken by 3 popular boys , gang raped repeatedly, then they took her clothes , and she was forced to walk 6 miles naked and bleeding for help.
The boys got away scott free with this.Instead my friend and  her family were threatened and harassed until they became so scared they pressured her to drop the charges.
When she went back to school she was taunted unmercifully about the rape by almost everyone.
Graffiti  making fun of the rape appeared all over school.Nobody would help her so 3 weeks into her senior year she quit.She is still extremely sympathetic to E &D today.
Before you judge all of us as bad people or stupid or just not having any morals, perhaps you should pause and think Hey, maybe there's a story there.

^That is awful, but as horrible as those events are, they would still not justify you seeking revenge by killing innocent kids that had nothing to do with the bullying you and your friend experienced (even then, I don't think that killing bullies themselves is a rational way to deal with the problem).

As I keep mentioning over and over again, Eric and Dylan did not even know most of their victims. They were the ones who actually bullied/taunted and killed people who they never even knew before killing them. And they get praised by misguided people as some type of heroes?

We don't even know for sure the extent of the bullying that Eric and Dylan were subjected to. As I've mentioned before, there has been accounts that they bullied and intimidated others prior to columbine. For all the sympathy Eric and Dylan receive for their high school years, they sure seemed to have a fair amount of friends and going by accounts, interacted with many of their classmates without many issues. They both had fairly normal interactions with girls. From what we know, they came from nice families.

They even had a friend who we all know by the name of Robyn Anderson, who actually ensured that the boys got their guns and they repaid her favour by shitting all over her, their families and their friends with their own selfish actions. E&D's friends and Robyn could have potentially died in the cafeteria bombs if everything had gone according to plan, but did that concern Eric and Dylan? Not enough to not go through with their plans.

I'm pretty sure there are kids out there who have gone through way worse things growing up than what Eric or Dylan did, but still didn't use their awful circumstances as an excuse to lash out and gleefully going on a murdering spree, killing innocent people.

I don't think it would justify it now but it sure felt justified then.I now don't believe killing is right but maybe 1% of the kids in my school were innocent. If they weren't doing the bullying themselves they were laughing and enjoying the humiliation of others
I don't subscribe to the Cullen version of E &D. Sorry. I never will.

I believe that anyone who has experienced the level of bulling that I have would understand why I am a Columbiner .
They might not agree with being one themselves but most would understand.

Well, I have locked this thread and it's probably going to be deleted because all of you decided to ignore me when I said to keep the conversation civil. Calling each other names is NOT keeping the conversation civil and it goes against the rules of this forum. The next member who personally insults another member will be banned from this forum for 2 weeks. This is the last warning I will give.

I suggest all of you step back and take a breather before posting again on this forum.

After cleaning up this mess of a thread, I have re-opened it. Some of you lost posts. Anything that was posted that broke our forum rules by name calling/insulting other members has been deleted. I hope all of you have calmed down and if you wish to continue to post in this thread, then keep it civil and have some respect for the other members who post in here. If you don't like or agree with someone's opinion, you can debate it with them without lowering yourself to name calling and throwing around insults.

Thank you.

Jenn wrote:

After cleaning up this mess of a thread, I have re-opened it. Some of you lost posts. Anything that was posted that broke our forum rules by name calling/insulting other members has been deleted. I hope all of you have calmed down and if you wish to continue to post in this thread, then keep it civil and have some respect for the other members who post in here. If you don't like or agree with someone's opinion, you can debate it with them without lowering yourself to name calling and throwing around insults.

Thank you.

I apologize if I broke any forum rules.  I must've seeing that all but one of my posts were deleted, even my post that simply asked Squid to expand on how I was taking her out of context.  That post, I know for a fact, did not break any forum rules.  Squid's post in which she calls us "ants" has not been deleted, I see.  Debating on someone's differing opinion is one thing.  But this isn't the first, nor I guess the last time this person will antagonize posters with petty name-calling and just outright immaturity.  

I may not have been in a dark place like some on the site have been.  I may not have this internalized want to defend E&D every chance I get.  But I do find, and have found Columbine interesting for many years.  I realize that this board's purpose is to discuss the event and that sometimes people's opinions may clash.  But I would think on most message boards, posters who are of the "opinion" that cold, heartless, and violent murder of innocent children is a "revolution" would more than likely have their posting privileges revoked.  These people do not need to be posting on message boards, let alone message boards about a high school shooting.  They need psychiatric help.  If these are the type of people who will post here, I think I rather do what I have done since this board was on the RPG site in 2011 and lurk instead.

Gctiger wrote:

Jenn wrote:

After cleaning up this mess of a thread, I have re-opened it. Some of you lost posts. Anything that was posted that broke our forum rules by name calling/insulting other members has been deleted. I hope all of you have calmed down and if you wish to continue to post in this thread, then keep it civil and have some respect for the other members who post in here. If you don't like or agree with someone's opinion, you can debate it with them without lowering yourself to name calling and throwing around insults.

Thank you.

I apologize if I broke any forum rules.  I must've seeing that all but one of my posts were deleted, even my post that simply asked Squid to expand on how I was taking her out of context.  That post, I know for a fact, did not break any forum rules.  Squid's post in which she calls us "ants" has not been deleted, I see.  Debating on someone's differing opinion is one thing.  But this isn't the first, nor I guess the last time this person will antagonize posters with petty name-calling and just outright immaturity.  

I may not have been in a dark place like some on the site have been.  I may not have this internalized want to defend E&D every chance I get.  But I do find, and have found Columbine interesting for many years.  I realize that this board's purpose is to discuss the event and that sometimes people's opinions may clash.  But I would think on most message boards, posters who are of the "opinion" that cold, heartless, and violent murder of innocent children is a "revolution" would more than likely have their posting privileges revoked.  These people do not need to be posting on message boards, let alone message boards about a high school shooting.  They need psychiatric help.  If these are the type of people who will post here, I think I rather do what I have done since this board was on the RPG site in 2011 and lurk instead.

You may not have been the one to make a post that was breaking the rules. If you quoted someone who left a post that was riddled with name calling and insults, then your post was deleted too but only because of who you were quoting. Or if you left a post and then someone responded to you with insults, then that was deleted too. Any conversations where either of the people were name calling was removed.

I cannot revoke someone's posting privilege simply because of their opinion. I understand that it's difficult to see people defending heartless and cruel murderers. Especially ones who killed innocent children, but that is their right to have that opinion whether others agree with it or not. In running my forum fairly, I have to remain unbiased and in this particular situation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was not the only one throwing around insults. Anyone who was involved in this fight (you all know who you are) have been given a warning about name calling. None of you have been banned and none of you have had any posting privileges taken away. The next time some calls another member a name, then I have no choice but to ban you.  

Also, it's not up anyone here, be it the staff members or forum members to tell someone else to get mental help. We are not here to evaluate anyone's mental ability to post on a message board. We are here to discuss the Columbine tragedy civilly and with respect towards others.

And no 'these types of people' obviously are not going to get away with talking to others and posting like that on this forum (as you can see by this thread). I'm not trying to encourage anyone to stop participating on the board, I am simply asking you to be civil and respectful towards each other and if you just cannot do that, then some people might just be better off not to interact with at all. This thread was going no where. It was just an argument going back and forth calling each other names or mocking others for their opinions.

I've decided to reopen the thread, but as I've said, any posts that broke our rules (be it what you posted or what you quoted) has been deleted. You can continue the conversations in this thread but please keep it civil. That's all I ask.

Edit: I must have missed the 'ants' post the first time around but I went back through the thread and it has been removed. If you anyone has an issue with any of the other posts in this thread, please let me know and I will take a look at it/remove it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] yes I have an issue with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s post saying I should be banned and need psychiatric help. This is offensive. He does not know me nor will he ever.

Also [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s post saying "Your defense of them has become borderline Tumblr fangirlish,  and you back up your positions and "debate" like a sassy 13 year old who doesn't get their way." I have not slandered her before this so I don't know why she is trying to slander me. This is bullying.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I  don't think it would justify it now but it sure felt justified then.I now don't believe killing is right but maybe 1% of the kids in my school were innocent. If they weren't doing the bullying themselves they were laughing and enjoying  the humiliation of others
I don't subscribe to the Cullen version of E &D. Sorry. I never will.

I  believe that anyone who has experienced the level of bulling that I have would understand why I am a Columbiner .
They might not agree with being one themselves but most would understand.

It sounds like you and your friend had a terrible time in high school which I am sorry to hear, however, I do find it difficult to believe that 99% of the people there were either bullies themselves or condoned bullying. Did you attend a small high school and did you personally know everyone there?

I haven't read Dave Cullen's book. I've done a lot of research about Columbine on and off over the years and have come to my own conclusions.

I find it a bit thoughtless when people keep saying that only those who have been bullied or depressed can truly "get" Eric and Dylan. As I've mentioned before, I have gone through terrible depression in my teenage years that lasted into my twenties and have suffered low self esteem throughout my life for various reasons, even as a child. As someone who is of mixed race who attended a small, predominantly European elementary school, I was treated as an outsider by some and was even subjected to racial abuse. Being called hateful names or being made to feel inferior for something as basic as the color of your skin doesn't exactly do wonders for a child's self-worth. Granted, not everyone treated me this way, but that is just one of the earliest examples where I can relate to feeling like an outcast amongst my peers. Things took a turn for the worse in high school, but for other reasons.

I just don't understand how someone could possibly excuse Eric and Dylan specifically singling Isaiah out to die based on something as simple as his skin color and "making sure the nigger is dead". Is that not bullying taken to an extreme level? And despite conflicting reports, there's nothing solid that indicates Eric and Dylan even knew Isaiah. If they did, that's certainly not the impression given to witnesses in the library. I can't understand why people would try and justify any of their victims being subjected to what they experienced that day.

When I was an angry, depressed teenager, did I truthfully have some fantasies about seeking some type of revenge on people who had treated me badly? Yes. Thankfully, I never acted on those thoughts or did anything drastic. Did I fantasize about seeking revenge by means of killing innocent people? No, because that wouldn't have even made sense.

These people who defend what Eric and Dylan did because they felt like they were wronged in the same ways at high school really do sicken me.

I sometimes sit at home and shake my head in disbelief at some of the things written.

My family are survivors of genocide. I know what it's like to come from a different cultural background.
Too me when E&D called Isaiah a nigger it's the same as when they made fun of others before shooting them. Weather it be about their religion, there glasses, or their weight. It doesn't stand out as anything special than their other victims. I believe they were imitating how they were bullied. In their last minutes they got to be the bully. They got to show everyone how they were treated. How they felt. It was their revenge. Isaiah wore a white hat he was an athlete. He was in with the jocks. He might not have been aware. But he was following quota. No one is truly innocent. Look at the bigger picture. Their plan was not to kill 13 people. It was all improvised. Sometimes I wish they blew up the whole school. Maybe more people would understand. They were not just murdering "innocents". They were murdering the extremely flawed school system. They were murdering the fucked up society. They could have gone the Ghandi or MLK route. But when a whisper becomes a scream. You need to tear it all down. Show no mercy.

Okay, I appreciate you explaining your angle (despite the fact the I vehemently disagree with it), but in another thread you compared the reasoning behind the actions of the Boston bombers to what Eric and Dylan's were, noting there were obvious differences between those reasons, but pointing out the similarity in the fact that they apprently had to do this to get their message across. Do you really believe that it was right that Martin Richard, an 8 year old boy, died so the Tsarnaev brothers could make their statement in that way? When you say that no one is truly innocent, do you believe that also applies to an 8 year old boy who, according to a veteran military combat surgeon, suffered an immensely painful death in the explosion? I just want to know where you'll draw the line.

I appreciate that you appreciated me shedding more light on my stance with D&E.
I thought bombing in the Boston marathon crowd was kind of pathetic. But I understand why they did it. I do not sympathize or agree with much of the Tsarnaev brothers actions. But more on their motivations. Therefore the death of the 8 year old was a bit unnecessary. But do understand lots of very young children have died by the US military. That was one of their points.
And to add to the record I HATE HATE HATE Adam Lanza. He is disgusting! No need for an explanation for this I assume.

Squid wrote:

My family are survivors of genocide. I know what it's like to come from a different cultural background.
Too me when E&D called Isaiah a nigger it's the same as when they made fun of others before shooting them. Weather it be about their religion, there glasses, or their weight. It doesn't stand out as anything special than their other victims. I believe they were imitating how they were bullied. In their last minutes they got to be the bully. They got to show everyone how they were treated. How they felt. It was their revenge. Isaiah wore a white hat he was an athlete. He was in with the jocks. He might not have been aware. But he was following quota. No one is truly innocent. Look at the bigger picture. Their plan was not to kill 13 people. It was all improvised. Sometimes I wish they blew up the whole school. Maybe more people would understand. They were not just murdering "innocents". They were murdering the extremely flawed school system. They were murdering the fucked up society. They could have gone the Ghandi or MLK route. But when a whisper becomes a scream. You need to tear it all down. Show no mercy.

You are pathetic. And if saying that gets me banned for two weeks then so be it. "Nobody is truly innocent?" Because he wore a white hat? You vile creature. Fuck you.

So apparently one can hate, hate, hate Adam Lanza because he is disgusting and murdered defenseless, innocent children. Well, as I have written here in other threads, that is exactly what Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold did in 1999. 'Nuff said.

Once again, these were two mentally ill youths who both, to certain degrees, wanted to die, and in the process say a resounding "FUCK YOU" to as many people as possible before cashing in their chips. If I quoted other radical academics who stated they were making a political statement against the U.S. educational system, that certainly doesn't mean that I endorse that view.

Congratulations [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you are now banned.

No "'nuff" said. E&D DID NOT KILL ANYONE 6-7 YEARS OF AGE. That is disgusting. They killed 15-47 years of age. Well old enough to be aware of there actions and how they affect other people. And their role in society.
But like I've been trying to explain E&D were not just out to kill their peers. Our 13 people. They were out to kill the school system and destroy society's frame work. Adam Lanza's dumbass did not try to accomplish anything in those deaths. Except what a stupid cunt he was.

You can dismiss them as just mentally ill psychopaths whatever. You can dismiss me the same like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. You can refuse to understand. You can turn a blind eye. But you will not learn anything. No one learned anything after the columbine massacre. It was made all out to be mentally ill youths and gun control. What a shame.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

Squid wrote:

My family are survivors of genocide. I know what it's like to come from a different cultural background.
Too me when E&D called Isaiah a nigger it's the same as when they made fun of others before shooting them. Weather it be about their religion, there glasses, or their weight. It doesn't stand out as anything special than their other victims. I believe they were imitating how they were bullied. In their last minutes they got to be the bully. They got to show everyone how they were treated. How they felt. It was their revenge. Isaiah wore a white hat he was an athlete. He was in with the jocks. He might not have been aware. But he was following quota. No one is truly innocent. Look at the bigger picture. Their plan was not to kill 13 people. It was all improvised. Sometimes I wish they blew up the whole school. Maybe more people would understand. They were not just murdering "innocents". They were murdering the extremely flawed school system. They were murdering the fucked up society. They could have gone the Ghandi or MLK route. But when a whisper becomes a scream. You need to tear it all down. Show no mercy.

You are pathetic. And if saying that gets me banned for two weeks then so be it. "Nobody is truly innocent?" Because he wore a white hat? You vile creature. Fuck you.

I'll second this. Sorry, Jenn. I understand as admin as want to run a civilized message board but this squid woman is a piece of work. It takes a truly fucked up person to make excuses for the slaughter of kids who cowered under their tables and begged for their parents.

"It was a revolution"
"Nobody is truly innocent"
"Death is natural"

No, fuck that line of thinking. The fact that she doesn't subscribe to Adam Lanza's "purpose"' of his massacre shows this grown ass woman has developed a sick crush on two teenage kids she probably finds cute who would've gladly pumped bullets into her or anyone in her family had they been in that library that day. Talking down on other users on this board like the narcissistic little shitheads Eric & Dylan were with this delusional "enlightened" God-like complex. I find the killers fascinating. I've researched them for years and probably know more about them than any notorious killers. I would never litter this board with "pathetic Eric this" or "pathetic Dylan that". But someone who condones what happened on 4-20-99 should have shit thrown back in their face. The woman literally says she "wishes" 200+ high school children would've blown up and been gun down so we can "understand" why her precious Eric and Dylan did what they did.

I won't tell you how to run your site. I visit this site almost daily after taking a long hiatus from researching columbine. But Squid sounds exactly like the type of people you see on 4chan who spew their nonsense on the internet then act on it and harm others. I know you said you don't revoke posting privileges because of differing opinions, but as admin, this is the type of person I cut ties with.

Like radioactive_clothing, I'll gladly take my ban for as long as you see fit just to tell Squid, I give absolutely no shits if i "offended" you, and no, I do not know you and I can't think of anything i would wanna do less than to get to know you. You let your keyboard doing the talking for you. You wouldn't dare spew your bullshit on here in real life to the families in Littleton.

Squid wrote:

Congratulations [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you are now banned.

No "'nuff" said. E&D DID NOT KILL ANYONE 6-7 YEARS OF AGE.  That is disgusting. They killed 15-47 years of age. Well old enough to be aware of there actions and how they affect other people. And their role in society.
But like I've been trying to explain E&D were not just out to kill their peers. Our 13 people. They were out to kill the school system and destroy society's frame work. Adam Lanza's dumbass did not try to accomplish anything in those deaths. Except what a stupid cunt he was.

Their* actions

And I'd gladly like for you to tell me me Kyle, a mentally disabled kid, did.  Kelly, a shy girl coming out her shell.  What did she do?  Go fuck yourself, woman.  You're vile

And Jenn, I just now saw your PM.  I appreciate it, but it seems I can't reply back.  I'll take a leave of absence, from posting at least. You run a very informative site I've participated in for 5 years right after I graduated high school.  I understand the situation you're put in.  Thanks again

Squid wrote:

Congratulations [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you are now banned.

No "'nuff" said. E&D DID NOT KILL ANYONE 6-7 YEARS OF AGE.  That is disgusting. They killed 15-47 years of age. Well old enough to be aware of there actions and how they affect other people. And their role in society.
But like I've been trying to explain E&D were not just out to kill their peers. Our 13 people. They were out to kill the school system and destroy society's frame work. Adam Lanza's dumbass did not try to accomplish anything in those deaths. Except what a stupid cunt he was.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what difference there is in killing a 7 year old and killing a 15 year old Daniel Mauser. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but murder is murder. Is Dave Sanders' murder any more or less tragic than a 6 year old at Sandy Hook? I don't think so.

Also, I don't think you need to explain to us what E/D wanted, planned, and intended on doing either. That is an insult to me and every other serious Columbine researcher who takes a real interest in contributing thoughtfully to this forum.

Quote :

No one learned anything after the columbine massacre.

I don't think that Eric and Dylan's message was "Everyone should be nicer to everyone else."  I'm pretty sure that they wanted Hell on Earth.  The revolution of the dispossessed or whatever is never going to happen because the vast majority of bullied kids have a problem with murder.  You are almost entirely alone in your thinking.  Sorry.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I ask you to not ban [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] let him keep saying "fuck you" to me and let him keep coming up with false accusations about me and let him keep twisting my words around. And show everyone what an un-constructive, closed minded BULLY he is. If I believed in karma it would be at times like this.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if you want to "throw shit in my face" you gotta try harder than this

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Nobody needs to twist your words, they're horribly there for all to see. Sentences like ''Sometimes I wish they blew up the school'' don't need twisting, it a blatantly disgusting thing to say.

Squid wrote:

I appreciate that you appreciated me shedding more light on my stance with D&E.
I thought bombing in the Boston marathon crowd was kind of pathetic. But I understand why they did it. I do not sympathize or agree with much of the Tsarnaev brothers actions. But more on their motivations. Therefore the death of the 8 year old was a bit unnecessary. But do understand lots of very young children have died by the US military. That was one of their points.
And to add to the record I HATE HATE HATE Adam Lanza. He is disgusting! No need for an explanation for this I assume.

What separates Adam Lanza from Eric/Dylan in your mind? Why do you hate him and think he's disgusting but wish that Eric and Dylan had killed even more people than they did? You say there's no need for an explanation but I don't understand.

bubbles wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I  don't think it would justify it now but it sure felt justified then.I now don't believe killing is right but maybe 1% of the kids in my school were innocent. If they weren't doing the bullying themselves they were laughing and enjoying  the humiliation of others
I don't subscribe to the Cullen version of E &D. Sorry. I never will.

I  believe that anyone who has experienced the level of bulling that I have would understand why I am a Columbiner .
They might not agree with being one themselves but most would understand.

It sounds like you and your friend had a terrible time in high school which I am sorry to hear, however, I do find it difficult to believe that 99% of the people there were either bullies themselves or condoned bullying. Did you attend a small high school and did you personally know everyone there?

I haven't read Dave Cullen's book. I've done a lot of research about Columbine on and off over the years and have come to my own conclusions.

I find it a bit thoughtless when people keep saying that only those who have been bullied or depressed can truly "get" Eric and Dylan. As I've mentioned before, I have gone through terrible depression in my teenage years that lasted into my twenties and have suffered low self esteem throughout my life for various reasons, even as a child. As someone who is of mixed race who attended a small, predominantly European elementary school, I was treated as an outsider by some and was even subjected to racial abuse. Being called hateful names or being made to feel inferior for something as basic as the color of your skin doesn't exactly do wonders for a child's self-worth. Granted, not everyone treated me this way, but that is just one of the earliest examples where I can relate to feeling like an outcast amongst my peers. Things took a turn for the worse in high school, but for other reasons.

I just don't understand how someone could possibly excuse Eric and Dylan specifically singling Isaiah out to die based on something as simple as his skin color and "making sure the nigger is dead". Is that not bullying taken to an extreme level? And despite conflicting reports, there's nothing solid that indicates Eric and Dylan even knew Isaiah. If they did, that's certainly not the impression given to witnesses in the library. I can't understand why people would try and justify any of their victims being subjected to what they experienced that day.

When I was an angry, depressed teenager, did I truthfully have some fantasies about seeking some type of revenge on people who had treated me badly? Yes. Thankfully, I never acted on those thoughts or did anything drastic. Did I fantasize about seeking revenge by means of killing innocent people? No, because that wouldn't have even made sense.

I thought I might get this reaction .
The school was average sized, yes I knew almost everyone there and yes 99% of them were vicious_____ who enjoyed either inflicting humiliation on others or just enjoying the same humiliation or both.
Yes, they really were that bad.Yes, almost none of them were innocent.
Believe it or not. That's how it was.It wasn't only high school either.These kids were like this from first grade on.I'm sorry about what you weren't through but unless you've been spit on almost every day by several kids, pushed sometimes down stairs, hit, shoved, smacked almost every day, humiliated in almost every way possible while a huge crowd laughs and cheers, while teachers look the other way and sometimes laugh too along with the kids, when teachers sometimes humiliate you to the delight of the class,while the school administration and school board will do nothing to help you and ignores your parents complaints while at the same time threatening to criminally prosecute them if they don't start dragging you to school every day and this crap goes on for your entire school career, then you can't know what I've been through.Again my best friend was brutally gang raped by three popular guys. NOTHING WAS DONE. They got away with it. They bragged about what they had done.She was then humiliated over and over again about the rape at school until she couldn't take it anymore.Because she had the guts to go to the hospital, get a rape kit done and press charges threats rained down on her and her family.
One of the guys girlfriends marched right up to their house banged on the door and said to her parents faces that "If your slut of a daughter doesn't drop these charges, then my friends and I will burn your f_________ house down."
The police told my friend that"Everyone believes them not you.If you go through with these charges in court , we can't guarantee your safety or your families safety.

I don't understand how I can be accused of exaggerating things after what I've shared here.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

These people who defend what Eric and Dylan did because they felt like they were wronged in the same ways at high school really do sicken me.

I sometimes sit at home and shake my head in disbelief at some of the things written.

Yeah, well its so easy to say that if you didn't live through what I did and what my best friend did. It's so easy to set upon a high horse and say "I'd NEVER want to do that no matter how badly I was treated by how many at my school.I'd never feel or think that way." if you didn't go through it.
If you went through what we did you might understand the desire to  go crazy on the people at our school that we had.And I no longer condone what E &D did but I do sympathize with why they did it and I remain very sympathetic to them.
If you didn't go through it, you can't know how or why I feel the way I do and other Columbiners out there do. Disagree all you want but that is the way I see it.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

These people who defend what Eric and Dylan did because they felt like they were wronged in the same ways at high school really do sicken me.

I sometimes sit at home and shake my head in disbelief at some of the things written.

Yeah, well its so easy to say that if you didn't live through what I did and what my best friend did. It's so easy to set upon a high horse and say "I'd NEVER want to do that no matter how badly I was treated by how many at my school.I'd never feel or think that way." if you didn't go through it.
If you went through what we did you might understand the desire to  go crazy on the people at our school that we had.And I no longer condone what E &D did but I do sympathize with why they did it and I remain  very sympathetic to them.
If you didn't go through it, you can't know how or why I feel the way I do and other Columbiners out there do. Disagree all you want but that is the way I see it.

You're very sympathetic towards them without even knowing for sure the extent of their bullying. That tells me that people like you are just fishing for reasons to sympathise, any reason at all. I'm very sorry to hear what you went through and agree that bullying can cause rash thoughts/actions especially when you're a teenager, but there comes a time when you grow up and realise those thoughts were down mostly to the fact that you were an angry teenager at the time. If those sinister thoughts travel with you into well into adulthood, I reckon there's a problem.

Undyne wrote:

Quote :

No one learned anything after the columbine massacre.

I don't think that Eric and Dylan's message was "Everyone should be nicer to everyone else."  I'm pretty sure that they wanted Hell on Earth.  The revolution of the dispossessed or whatever is never going to happen because the vast majority of bullied kids have a problem with murder.  You are almost entirely alone in your thinking.  Sorry.

I don't think it was the message they were really trying to express but it's what anyone who looks at this situation trying to find answers should probably be thinking about. People are constantly belittling "outsiders" and making snap judgments about everyone. People get pleasure out of taking others down a notch. People (especially teenagers but also adults) are cruel and always ready to make you feel like a fool for going your own way in life. A little kindness would go a long way.

We don't need to learn only what Eric and Dylan wanted us to learn. It's a fact that they both felt chronically lonely and that they were ostracized and ultimately attacked the people in their community. Some people like to point out that bullying wasn't a constant thing but the entire social climate was ugly, unfair and mean and no one cared or really did anything to change it. There is not a direct cause and effect relationship here but it was a very significant factor and it's something that can't be ignored.

Whether or not anyone likes it, no one can deny that tons of people still relate to Eric and Dylan's feelings and experiences. Doesn't that bother you? They have been so hurt by this world that they can understand (or even support) wanting to murder all of your classmates? Does that not matter at all or have you just decided that they are bad people and deserve to be hurt, just like most people have concluded about Eric and Dylan? It's safe to show disdain, accuse them of being mentally ill or treat them badly because they are "not like you."

People are cruel because they're taught that it's okay to be cruel to certain people. Eric and Dylan just took it to an extreme. They saw that for all the talk of love and compassion, people rarely back that up with their actions. We can learn to be nicer to people because of stuff like Columbine if we choose to, regardless of what Eric and Dylan believed themselves. I don't blame the people who were unkind to Eric/Dylan for their homicidal behavior but I don't absolve them of their inconsiderate and hurtful actions just because Eric and Dylan chose to do terrible things in the end. One thing does not cancel out the other because we are ALL responsible for ALL of our actions, not just Eric and Dylan.

I just look at the way people attack each other all the time, always trying to get the upper hand and prove how shitty the other guy really is, and it sometimes makes me wonder if compassion is even possible. It's hard to accept that people can express sympathy for corpses (either E/D or their victims) but they can't have sympathy for one another. What does it take for people to understand the impact of their words and actions on other people, good or bad? Okay, maybe that's enough for now.

Hectic wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

These people who defend what Eric and Dylan did because they felt like they were wronged in the same ways at high school really do sicken me.

I sometimes sit at home and shake my head in disbelief at some of the things written.

Yeah, well its so easy to say that if you didn't live through what I did and what my best friend did. It's so easy to set upon a high horse and say "I'd NEVER want to do that no matter how badly I was treated by how many at my school.I'd never feel or think that way." if you didn't go through it.
If you went through what we did you might understand the desire to  go crazy on the people at our school that we had.And I no longer condone what E &D did but I do sympathize with why they did it and I remain  very sympathetic to them.
If you didn't go through it, you can't know how or why I feel the way I do and other Columbiners out there do. Disagree all you want but that is the way I see it.

You're very sympathetic towards them without even knowing for sure the extent of their bullying. That tells me that people like you are just fishing for reasons to sympathise, any reason at all. I'm very sorry to hear what you went through and agree that bullying can cause rash thoughts/actions especially when you're a teenager, but there comes a time when you grow up and realise those thoughts were down mostly to the fact that you were an angry teenager at the time. If those sinister thoughts travel with you into well into adulthood, I reckon there's a problem.

I've been a Columbiner since Day 1. I know everything you do and maybe more.I really don't need you telling me that I'm fishing for anything.I have my strongly backed up opinions and beliefs just like you do.
I cannot even tell you what I have went through to come out the other side.
I have only shared a small portion of the story of my best friend and I.
There is a lot more to what happened to us, what we went through.

I have grown up.But that kind of long term abuse and humiliation is not easy to forget or get over.
Now that I have lived to be more than a decade older than them,I realize what kids E&D actually were.

sscc wrote:

Undyne wrote:

Quote :

No one learned anything after the columbine massacre.

I don't think that Eric and Dylan's message was "Everyone should be nicer to everyone else."  I'm pretty sure that they wanted Hell on Earth.  The revolution of the dispossessed or whatever is never going to happen because the vast majority of bullied kids have a problem with murder.  You are almost entirely alone in your thinking.  Sorry.

I don't think it was the message they were really trying to express but it's what anyone who looks at this situation trying to find answers should probably be thinking about. People are constantly belittling "outsiders" and making snap judgments about everyone. People get pleasure out of taking others down a notch. People (especially teenagers but also adults) are cruel and always ready to make you feel like a fool for going your own way in life. A little kindness would go a long way.

We don't need to learn only what Eric and Dylan wanted us to learn. It's a fact that they both felt chronically lonely and that they were ostracized and ultimately attacked the people in their community. Some people like to point out that bullying wasn't a constant thing but the entire social climate was ugly, unfair and mean and no one cared or really did anything to change it. There is not a direct cause and effect relationship here but it was a very significant factor and it's something that can't be ignored.

Whether or not anyone likes it, no one can deny that tons of people still relate to Eric and Dylan's feelings and experiences. Doesn't that bother you? They have been so hurt by this world that they can understand (or even support) wanting to murder all of your classmates? Does that not matter at all or have you just decided that they are bad people and deserve to be hurt, just like most people have concluded about Eric and Dylan? It's safe to show disdain, accuse them of being mentally ill or treat them badly because they are "not like you."

People are cruel because they're taught that it's okay to be cruel to certain people. Eric and Dylan just took it to an extreme. They saw that for all the talk of love and compassion, people rarely back that up with their actions. We can learn to be nicer to people because of stuff like Columbine if we choose to, regardless of what Eric and Dylan believed themselves. I don't blame the people who were unkind to Eric/Dylan for their homicidal behavior but I don't absolve them of their inconsiderate and hurtful actions just because Eric and Dylan chose to do terrible things in the end. One thing does not cancel out the other because we are ALL responsible for ALL of our actions, not just Eric and Dylan.

I just look at the way people attack each other all the time, always trying to get the upper hand and prove how shitty the other guy really is, and it sometimes makes me wonder if compassion is even possible. It's hard to accept that people can express sympathy for corpses (either E/D or their victims) but they can't have sympathy for one another. What does it take for people to understand the impact of their words and actions on other people, good or bad? Okay, maybe that's enough for now.

What a wonderful post.I only wish this forum had a like button.

Squid wrote:

Congratulations [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you are now banned.

No "'nuff" said. E&D DID NOT KILL ANYONE 6-7 YEARS OF AGE.  That is disgusting. They killed 15-47 years of age. Well old enough to be aware of there actions and how they affect other people. And their role in society.
But like I've been trying to explain E&D were not just out to kill their peers. Our 13 people. They were out to kill the school system and destroy society's frame work. Adam Lanza's dumbass did not try to accomplish anything in those deaths. Except what a stupid cunt he was.

Good. I'd rather be banned than read the shit you infect the board with.

I came off as more hostile to Radioactive_Clothing in one of my posts than I meant to.
Opening up like this about such deeply painful years and humiliating memories is so emotional for me, then to be told that you must be exaggerating what happened or that "I'd never want to do what E &D did, no matter what happened to me." or "I'd never have any sympathy or love for E &D, no matter how people treated me ever" is frustrating because you are pouring your heart out and almost nobody gets it.
But I probably came off differently than I meant to.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I get you man. I completely feel your pain.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank you thank you for this post

sscc wrote:

Undyne wrote:

Quote :

No one learned anything after the columbine massacre.

I don't think that Eric and Dylan's message was "Everyone should be nicer to everyone else."  I'm pretty sure that they wanted Hell on Earth.  The revolution of the dispossessed or whatever is never going to happen because the vast majority of bullied kids have a problem with murder.  You are almost entirely alone in your thinking.  Sorry.

I don't think it was the message they were really trying to express but it's what anyone who looks at this situation trying to find answers should probably be thinking about. People are constantly belittling "outsiders" and making snap judgments about everyone. People get pleasure out of taking others down a notch. People (especially teenagers but also adults) are cruel and always ready to make you feel like a fool for going your own way in life. A little kindness would go a long way.

We don't need to learn only what Eric and Dylan wanted us to learn. It's a fact that they both felt chronically lonely and that they were ostracized and ultimately attacked the people in their community. Some people like to point out that bullying wasn't a constant thing but the entire social climate was ugly, unfair and mean and no one cared or really did anything to change it. There is not a direct cause and effect relationship here but it was a very significant factor and it's something that can't be ignored.

Whether or not anyone likes it, no one can deny that tons of people still relate to Eric and Dylan's feelings and experiences. Doesn't that bother you? They have been so hurt by this world that they can understand (or even support) wanting to murder all of your classmates? Does that not matter at all or have you just decided that they are bad people and deserve to be hurt, just like most people have concluded about Eric and Dylan? It's safe to show disdain, accuse them of being mentally ill or treat them badly because they are "not like you."

People are cruel because they're taught that it's okay to be cruel to certain people. Eric and Dylan just took it to an extreme. They saw that for all the talk of love and compassion, people rarely back that up with their actions. We can learn to be nicer to people because of stuff like Columbine if we choose to, regardless of what Eric and Dylan believed themselves. I don't blame the people who were unkind to Eric/Dylan for their homicidal behavior but I don't absolve them of their inconsiderate and hurtful actions just because Eric and Dylan chose to do terrible things in the end. One thing does not cancel out the other because we are ALL responsible for ALL of our actions, not just Eric and Dylan.

I just look at the way people attack each other all the time, always trying to get the upper hand and prove how shitty the other guy really is, and it sometimes makes me wonder if compassion is even possible. It's hard to accept that people can express sympathy for corpses (either E/D or their victims) but they can't have sympathy for one another. What does it take for people to understand the impact of their words and actions on other people, good or bad? Okay, maybe that's enough for now.

Eric and Dylan were perhaps at their smartest with with their wish for kick-starting a revolution idea.

I think the Basement Tapes were created for the purpose of preying on those wronged and vulnerable (ie PaintItBlack's friend).

It's sad and frustrating that they don't seem to realise that Eric and Dylan were just trying to use them as a tool to do their will ( like getting Robyn to buy the guns). Ultimately, they didn't give a fuck about themselves and just wanted to cause as much mayhem as possible, and are to this day still fooling people to do their will.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I came off as more hostile to Radioactive_Clothing in one of my posts than I meant to.
Opening up like this about such deeply painful years and humiliating memories is so emotional for me, then to be told that you must be exaggerating what happened or that "I'd never want to do what E &D did, no matter what happened to me." or "I'd never have any sympathy or love for E &D, no matter how people treated me ever" is frustrating because you are pouring your heart out and almost nobody gets it.
But I probably came off differently than I meant to.

That's fine, you can be as hostile as you wish. I don't recall saying you exaggerated your experiences though.

sscc wrote:

I just look at the way people attack each other all the time, always trying to get the upper hand and prove how shitty the other guy really is, and it sometimes makes me wonder if compassion is even possible. It's hard to accept that people can express sympathy for corpses (either E/D or their victims) but they can't have sympathy for one another. What does it take for people to understand the impact of their words and actions on other people, good or bad? Okay, maybe that's enough for now.

This is such a wonderful post.  Bullying is really not something exclusive to teens.  It's something that occurs well into adulthood. And if it's something you experienced as teen, then you don't just grow up and get over it.  Studies show that teens who were bullied have significantly higher rates of psychiatric problems in adulthood.  My personal belief is that so many people lack compassion and empathy.  They are just so quick to hate those they don't understand or jump on the underdog

Squid wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I get you man. I completely feel your pain.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank you thank you for this post

Thank you Squid.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I came off as more hostile to Radioactive_Clothing in one of my posts than I meant to.
Opening up like this about such deeply painful years and humiliating memories is so emotional for me, then to be told that you must be exaggerating what happened or that "I'd never want to do what E &D did, no matter what happened to me." or "I'd never have any sympathy or love for E &D, no matter how people treated me ever" is frustrating because you are pouring your heart out and almost nobody gets it.
But I probably came off differently than I meant to.

That's fine, you can be as hostile as you wish. I don't recall saying you exaggerated your experiences though.

No, it was bubbles who gave the impression she was saying that when she said something like I have a hard time believing that most of the school bullied you and your friend?Did you know most of the people in the school?
If she didn't actually mean that, what she said gave that impression.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I came off as more hostile to Radioactive_Clothing in one of my posts than I meant to.
Opening up like this about such deeply painful years and humiliating memories is so emotional for me, then to be told that you must be exaggerating what happened or that "I'd never want to do what E &D did, no matter what happened to me." or "I'd never have any sympathy or love for E &D, no matter how people treated me ever" is frustrating because you are pouring your heart out and almost nobody gets it.
But I probably came off differently than I meant to.

That's fine, you can be as hostile as you wish. I don't recall saying you exaggerated your experiences though.

No, it was bubbles who gave the impression she was saying that when she said something like I have a hard time believing that most of the school bullied you and your friend?Did you know most of the people in the school?
If she didn't actually mean that, what she said gave that impression.

Ok, fair enough.