The small questions thread

It would likely have to be someone sitting close enough to have seen Dylan shoot Cory. Check the near by tables and that would narrow it down some.

Seth Houy who was under table 10 was in E&Ds bowling class, and was reportedly a "jock", but I'm not too sure if he could see table 14 (where Corey was) from his position. He's really the only person in that area of the library I could see having had any contact with E&D prior to 4/20.

Is it known if any girls appeared on the hit lists?

Szabo wrote:

Is it known if any girls appeared on the hit lists?

The names are redacted but using context in the reports, yes, some were female.

You might be right about Seth...

I sometimes wonder how many people they saw and how much of it was shooting blindly under tables. There's a lot of adrenaline I'm sure. They let John go and talked to him and they also talked to Evan but other people it seems like they were shooting blindly.


Szabo, thanks for that info!!

As far as girls, Eric had a hit list of girls, I also believe that Eric had the girl or the girls boyfriend that Dylan called a bitch on his list. No reasoning behind why Dylan seemed to have such a dislike of her.

Ah, there's my question for my fellow researchers.

Where is the interview with that girl from gym class that Dylan pushed and called a bitch?

It is interesting to me that a lot of girls called Dylan sweet and gentle then he's pushing other girls in class.

I knew someone like that, he punched me in the back on graduation day. His friend (a girl) told him to knock it off and apologized on his behalf.

I am assuming we would have heard about Dylan in this aspect via AMR BUT do we know if Eric or Dylan had any actual suicide attempts?

Do we know if anyone ever saw any of Dylan's self mutilation marks? It wasn't on his autopsy but he talks about cutting himself.

Littlelo wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

E&D were not as tight-lipped as people think. It amazes me how many opportunities there were for someone to put the pieces together.

I still can't get over, if it is true, Mark Manes asking Eric if he was going shooting and he said "maybe tomorrow" he probably had a huge smirk on his face.

There was a story either at the mall or at the cafeteria, they were showing pictures of the layout of the school to people. I could be combing a few stories together...

I think either Alex Marsh or Nicole Markham said she walked up to them in the cafeteria while they were holding a piece of paper. She grabbed it from their hands even though they were trying to be discrete with it. She said it was a map of the school (or maybe just the cafeteria?) that included locations of the security cameras.

I think it was just the cafeteria. It is interesting that they located the cameras and then proceeded to get caught on tape by most of them. I wonder if it in any case was intentional, like for example the bomb planting where they are very visible. I feel like they could have gone behind the pillar instead of in front of it to avoid getting caught on tape.

Well I guess it is just another thing to show they absolutely had no thoughts about the repercussions of their crime, knowing they where gonna make sure to end themselves before getting caught.

Maybe they wanted to be caught by the cameras? I don't think there would be any motivation not to; they weren't planning on living through NBK. Just my thoughts.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I am assuming we would have heard about Dylan in this aspect via AMR BUT do we know if Eric or Dylan had any actual suicide attempts?

Do we know if anyone ever saw any of Dylan's self mutilation marks? It wasn't on his autopsy but he talks about cutting himself.

I've read in the 11k someone mentioning Dylan as the guy who carved his arm with a razor. I dont remember where though. However if I remember it correctly the statement regarded something he had heard long before the attack. Probably junior year sometime.

Ok, I found it in the 11k highlights thread:

11k-report
p1101-1200
page 15
Have you seen them before?
Yes, in school, they are seniors, one carved his arm with a razor.

Creds to: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

munchkinphone wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I am assuming we would have heard about Dylan in this aspect via AMR BUT do we know if Eric or Dylan had any actual suicide attempts?

Do we know if anyone ever saw any of Dylan's self mutilation marks? It wasn't on his autopsy but he talks about cutting himself.

I've read in the 11k someone mentioning Dylan as the guy who carved his arm with a razor. I dont remember where though. However if I remember it correctly the statement regarded something he had heard long before the attack. Probably junior year sometime.

I'd be interested to see that part of the report. There is a ton of misinformation by "leads" in the 11k, but if we had reason to believe it was an accurate report, it would be a big piece of evidence.

Would the coroner have noted seeing scars on his arms, even if there weren't any actual cuts?

By the way he said it, it seems it was a rumor rather than him casually happening to witness Eric or Dylan cutting themselves or revealing scars haha.

I can imagine Dylan showing scars but not Eric so I guess I just assumed the witness was talking about Dylan but it could potentially be either one of them.

I have a question and I'm not sure if it's been asked before...

Let's say the Browns successfully managed to get law enforcement to pursue investigating Eric's threats towards Brooks and bomb-making. They went to police after the van incident occurred. If Eric got in trouble for making and detonating the pipe bombs, would he have been ineligible for the diversion program?

I ask this because in No Easy Answers, Brooks admits the diversion program was ineffective. And we know Wayne Harris searched Eric's room after the van break-in. So what would it really have changed, in the long run?

That part about one of them cutting himself with a razor is on 1115 unless more than one person mentioned it but it doesn't say anything else.

I would say they'd note scars on his arm. They mentioned the scar on Dylan's stomach from when he was a baby. I thought it was a self mutilation scar for a while and wondered if that correlated with the stomachaches he was having in AMR then I remembered SK telling the story about how when he was little he had emergency surgery and had a scar.

They did mark a lot down in the reports, granted in Eric's they got his hair color wrong but it seems like if he had scars on his arm it would have been notated. "Carving" your arm is so visceral

Littlelo wrote:

I have a question and I'm not sure if it's been asked before...

Let's say the Browns successfully managed to get law enforcement to pursue investigating Eric's threats towards Brooks and bomb-making. They went to police after the van incident occurred. If Eric got in trouble for making and detonating the pipe bombs, would he have been ineligible for the diversion program?

I ask this because in No Easy Answers, Brooks admits the diversion program was ineffective. And we know Wayne Harris searched Eric's room after the van break-in. So what would it really have changed, in the long run?

That's an interesting question. I'm trying to get a gauge on what the other kids that went through diversion were like, what were their offenses? Did they have more of a history of criminal activity than E&D. Did they have a history or truancy, or were they good students?

On the surface the boys were "good kids" they had a lot of people fooled.

However if Eric's threats were taken seriously and if they found out more about the rebel missions, he may have not been able to convince people he just made a stupid mistake. If he didn't go to diversion... then he would have went to Juvenile Hall? Dylan may have still been eligible for the diversion program but I wonder how much of his involvement had to do with Eric going and convincing Dylan to take it "seriously" there was something SK said about a place he could have gone to that would have given him intense counseling and that may have worked out better for him. The trick would be to get him to open up. I have a feeling Dylan was "fine" a lot. You can't force someone to talk and share their feelings.

Eric got more out of it (at least on the surface) than Dylan did, yet both of them were let out early. Dylan blatantly did not give AF. I would have loved to have read his apology letter to the owner of the van.

Littlelo wrote:

I have a question and I'm not sure if it's been asked before...

Let's say the Browns successfully managed to get law enforcement to pursue investigating Eric's threats towards Brooks and bomb-making. They went to police after the van incident occurred. If Eric got in trouble for making and detonating the pipe bombs, would he have been ineligible for the diversion program?

I ask this because in No Easy Answers, Brooks admits the diversion program was ineffective. And we know Wayne Harris searched Eric's room after the van break-in. So what would it really have changed, in the long run?

I think that the Browns would have pressed for Eric to get in as much trouble as possible once they had proof that Eric was really building bombs and even if he wasn't prosecuted severely for it, the Klebolds would probably have heard about it and would have seen Eric's website. I don't know how it would have affected Eric in terms of the legal consequences but I think that it could have changed things on that level.

I think the Klebolds would have been a lot more worried about pipe bombs and threats of violence than they were about the break-in because there would have been a possibility of someone getting hurt. Sue may have ordered Dylan to stay away from Eric for good since the Klebolds were already motivated to do that after the break-in. We know how Sue felt about Dylan so she may have worried about Dylan accidentally blowing himself up even if she never considered that he might hurt other people. I think the Klebolds would have kept a closer eye on Dylan for his own protection and may have asked more questions about what was going on with Eric. Sue admitted that they knew Dylan had some problems by his junior year but didn't realize just how troubled he was. If this came out, I think they would want to know why Dylan was friends with someone who was making violent threats and building bombs and whether he had been involved with any of that.

Aside from that, the website may also have changed Eric's parents' attitude toward the pipe bombs. They didn't seem to feel that the situation was particularly serious when they found the pipe bomb but if they knew that he was also threatening violence, they might have been worried and watched him more closely.

sscc wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I have a question and I'm not sure if it's been asked before...

Let's say the Browns successfully managed to get law enforcement to pursue investigating Eric's threats towards Brooks and bomb-making. They went to police after the van incident occurred. If Eric got in trouble for making and detonating the pipe bombs, would he have been ineligible for the diversion program?

I ask this because in No Easy Answers, Brooks admits the diversion program was ineffective. And we know Wayne Harris searched Eric's room after the van break-in. So what would it really have changed, in the long run?

I think that the Browns would have pressed for Eric to get in as much trouble as possible once they had proof that Eric was really building bombs and even if he wasn't prosecuted severely for it, the Klebolds would probably have heard about it and would have seen Eric's website. I don't know how it would have affected Eric in terms of the legal consequences but I think that it could have changed things on that level.

I think the Klebolds would have been a lot more worried about pipe bombs and threats of violence than they were about the break-in because there would have been a possibility of someone getting hurt. Sue may have ordered Dylan to stay away from Eric for good since the Klebolds were already motivated to do that after the break-in. We know how Sue felt about Dylan so she may have worried about Dylan accidentally blowing himself up even if she never considered that he might hurt other people. I think the Klebolds would have kept a closer eye on Dylan for his own protection and may have asked more questions about what was going on with Eric. Sue admitted that they knew Dylan had some problems by his junior year but didn't realize just how troubled he was. If this came out, I think they would want to know why Dylan was friends with someone who was making violent threats and building bombs and whether he had been involved with any of that.

Aside from that, the website may also have changed Eric's parents' attitude toward the pipe bombs. They didn't seem to feel that the situation was particularly serious when they found the pipe bomb but if they knew that he was also threatening violence, they might have been worried and watched him more closely.

That's one of the reasons SK said in her book that it is so important for parents to share information regardless of how trivial it seems. I get annoyed at that part of the book when Judy shows up at the house on 4/20 talking about how she knew Eric was dangerous and about the website... day late and a dollar short Judy, 24 hours before the Klebolds could have done something about it and maybe 15 people would be alive. That is putting a lot on Judy, which is unfair but still, it was so inappropriate.

I agree she would have worried about Dylan's safety first off, hurting himself with pipe bombs. She wouldn't let him have a gun until he was 18 and could buy one for himself, let alone learning he was experimenting with building bombs.

What does "Dropped TA" mean on these schedules?

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think I heard the class was cancelled because not enough students enrolled?

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This class roster without Dylan in it makes it seem like he quit the course early. Now why would he do that? It feels like a subject he would like.

And why would Eric quit german?

Could be interesting to check the dates they quit (if that is what they did) and try to see if it has any connection to some event or journal entry.

5th January & 15th

Eric and Robyn were the only ones to sign up for Independent Study of a Foreign Language so they were forced to drop it.

Ah okay, I thought maybe it could be a result of the Eric/Kristi/Nate-Thing partially but then I guess not.

But what about Dylan then? Hmm..

I mean, I see no good reason for him leaving philosophy class. He seems to like philosphy and both Brooks and Eric was in that class.

I wonder if it was when he started his tech support and maybe his schedule was too much?

He also had an issue with teachers, like his French teacher. Didn't he constantly storm out of class? Maybe he didn't like the teacher?

He left philosophy class 15th and 20th he writes in his journal "Maybe going NBK (gawd) is the way to break free". Which expresses some kind of scepticism

I feel like he was maybe trying to get distance from Eric or at least get a shot at creating a vision of a future where he lives.

At least there was no reason for him to quit if he knew he was gonna die anyways, unless it was a job that he took to make money for propane and stuff...

What was this tech support? Is there anything about it in the 11k?

Hi munchkinphone! Tech support was from A Mothers Reckoning. I never saw It mentioned in the 11 K. I assumed it was kind of like a GeekSquad job at Best Buy. It seems like it was on the weekends and after school.

I agree he did seem to want to distance d himself from Eric, so did his parents. Kathy is the one who was against splitting the boys up.

I wonder what pulled him back in?

I know what you mean about dropping a class, because obviously it didn't matter in the long run. But Dylan and Eric both did lots of things that wouldn't make sense considering they knew they would be dead by April. (E.g. Dylan picking out his dorm and visiting U of Arizona, Eric applying for the marines). I'm not sure we can apply logic to their actions...

I agree, they also both made plans with friends for after the 20th.

I think much of that was to just make everyone think they were "fine" and not ask any questions? Both E&D made an effort to appear to be thinking about and planning for their future. BUT we all know what their only goal was.

Here's a question: Robyn claims she wasn't asked for ID by the dealer when she accompanied E&D to the gun show in December of 1998. Do you believe her?

Littlelo wrote:

Here's a question: Robyn claims she wasn't asked for ID by the dealer when she accompanied E&D to the gun show in December of 1998. Do you believe her?

They saw a few dealers that day. They report asking for an ID but the whole process seems convoluted. I think Robyn said they didn't run a background check and couldn't remember if they asked for ID? In any case the one dealer didn't even know if he could sell to her and had to ask someone else. I don't think any of these men were familiar with selling guns to 18 year olds.

If she did say that (memory is rusty) I might be inclined to believe her.... I recall the one guy asking E&D "did you bring an 18 year old with you this time?" which sounds pretty stupid to ask bc right then and there you know who is really getting the guns

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Here's a question: Robyn claims she wasn't asked for ID by the dealer when she accompanied E&D to the gun show in December of 1998. Do you believe her?

They saw a few dealers that day.  They report asking for an ID but the whole process seems convoluted.  I think Robyn said they didn't run a background check and couldn't remember if they asked for ID?  In any case the one dealer didn't even know if he could sell to her and had to ask someone else.  I don't think any of these men were familiar with selling guns to 18 year olds.  

If she did say that (memory is rusty) I might be inclined to believe her.... I recall the one guy asking E&D "did you bring an 18 year old with you this time?" which sounds pretty stupid to ask bc right then and there you know who is really getting the guns

Wow I didn't know all of that info, thanks. I believe she MUST have been asked for ID at some point by someone, but it was a gun show, so don't they skip the background checks in that case?

Regardless, she did state to detectives that she was not asked for ID on page 18,977 of the 11k

Littlelo wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Here's a question: Robyn claims she wasn't asked for ID by the dealer when she accompanied E&D to the gun show in December of 1998. Do you believe her?

They saw a few dealers that day.  They report asking for an ID but the whole process seems convoluted.  I think Robyn said they didn't run a background check and couldn't remember if they asked for ID?  In any case the one dealer didn't even know if he could sell to her and had to ask someone else.  I don't think any of these men were familiar with selling guns to 18 year olds.  

If she did say that (memory is rusty) I might be inclined to believe her.... I recall the one guy asking E&D "did you bring an 18 year old with you this time?" which sounds pretty stupid to ask bc right then and there you know who is really getting the guns

Wow I didn't know all of that info, thanks. I believe she MUST have been asked for ID at some point by someone, but it was a gun show, so don't they skip the background checks in that case?

Regardless, she did state to detectives that she was not asked for ID on page 18,977 of the 11k

how do you know the exact page number, thats crazy

-warrior wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Here's a question: Robyn claims she wasn't asked for ID by the dealer when she accompanied E&D to the gun show in December of 1998. Do you believe her?

They saw a few dealers that day.  They report asking for an ID but the whole process seems convoluted.  I think Robyn said they didn't run a background check and couldn't remember if they asked for ID?  In any case the one dealer didn't even know if he could sell to her and had to ask someone else.  I don't think any of these men were familiar with selling guns to 18 year olds.  

If she did say that (memory is rusty) I might be inclined to believe her.... I recall the one guy asking E&D "did you bring an 18 year old with you this time?" which sounds pretty stupid to ask bc right then and there you know who is really getting the guns

Wow I didn't know all of that info, thanks. I believe she MUST have been asked for ID at some point by someone, but it was a gun show, so don't they skip the background checks in that case?

Regardless, she did state to detectives that she was not asked for ID on page 18,977 of the 11k

how do you know the exact page number, thats crazy

Each page has a label with the number, it's just a lot of looking through and finding these things!

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Littlelo wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Here's a question: Robyn claims she wasn't asked for ID by the dealer when she accompanied E&D to the gun show in December of 1998. Do you believe her?

They saw a few dealers that day.  They report asking for an ID but the whole process seems convoluted.  I think Robyn said they didn't run a background check and couldn't remember if they asked for ID?  In any case the one dealer didn't even know if he could sell to her and had to ask someone else.  I don't think any of these men were familiar with selling guns to 18 year olds.  

If she did say that (memory is rusty) I might be inclined to believe her.... I recall the one guy asking E&D "did you bring an 18 year old with you this time?" which sounds pretty stupid to ask bc right then and there you know who is really getting the guns

Wow I didn't know all of that info, thanks. I believe she MUST have been asked for ID at some point by someone, but it was a gun show, so don't they skip the background checks in that case?

Regardless, she did state to detectives that she was not asked for ID on page 18,977 of the 11k

Yea you don't need to do background checks on the guns purchased at the gun show. I know she was asked at least by the one dealer for an ID but its been about a year since I cracked open the 11k and read all the way thru.

Also when you have been through it enough times things just stick. I think this is why [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is like a walking, talking 11K.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Also when you have been through it enough times things just stick. I think this is why [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is like a walking, talking 11K.

Haha seriously. I don't think I'll ever be anywhere near that.

I will say after trying to go through it pretty thoroughly, there is so much mundane/repeat/useless information especially when you get to the students interviewed who saw nothing that day. I'm still plugging away though.

Littlelo wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Also when you have been through it enough times things just stick. I think this is why [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is like a walking, talking 11K.

Haha seriously. I don't think I'll ever be anywhere near that.

I will say after trying to go through it pretty thoroughly, there is so much mundane/repeat/useless information especially when you get to the students interviewed who saw nothing that day. I'm still plugging away though.

Me either! I do admire his dedication though. He has helped me find a lot of things, saving me from a shit ton of searching through all those documents.

Littlelo wrote:

Wow I didn't know all of that info, thanks. I believe she MUST have been asked for ID at some point by someone, but it was a gun show, so don't they skip the background checks in that case?

As far as I know, sometimes they do have to run background checks at gun shows. The "gun show loophole" where background checks are not required applies only to individual private sellers. If someone is a federally licensed dealer, then they have to run a background check, even if they are selling at a gun show. The law is intended to make it easier for private sellers to make infrequent sales of guns that they own but it's vague enough that people can make many transactions and still not be required to have a license. I think the only limit is that it must not be their primary source of income. I looked into this and I did not find any reliable data about how many people who participate in selling guns at shows are licensed but I would guess that the vast majority are unlicensed.

There is a breakdown of the report on the now defunct Evan Long site. That is where I go for quick citings.
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Thank you sscc I was going to ask that very question. Because that's something I hear brought up in the gun control debate about the gun show loophole. When I hear people who are pro- Second Amendment say that was debunked I think " but what about how Robyn got the guns for Eric and Dylan? "

Sorry if this is a dumb question but is there anything that validates Eric telling someone to stop bitching it's a flesh wound. I remember people way back quoting that, it's funny though because it's from Monty Python.... it seems like an odd thing to make up.

I believe he probably said "quit your bitching". But maybe over time that got combined with the quote on his AOL profile (which is the Monty Python quote). Or maybe he really did say it...

Thanks littlelo!

I'm wondering how much Eric would have had to have told Dr.Albert about 4/20 for police involvement.

Would he have had to spell everything out with specifics or would a "my friend and I are so mad we are considering blowing up the school"

Screamingophelia wrote:

I'm wondering how much Eric would have had to have told Dr.Albert about 4/20 for police involvement.

Would he have had to spell everything out with specifics or would a "my friend and I are so mad we are considering blowing up the school"

I also wonder this because I know there is a line you can't cross regarding patient confidentiality unless there is an imminent threat to him or others.

I doubt he would have said anything too incriminating though. Who knows how that might be different if it were today...

Do we have a fairly accurate idea of how many minutes there were between Brooks & Eric's conversation and the first shots fired outside/pipe bombs detonated?

Littlelo wrote:

Do we have a fairly accurate idea of how many minutes there were between Brooks & Eric's conversation and the first shots fired outside/pipe bombs detonated?

From Brooks account in his book, it was within a few minutes of him walking away from the school parking lot down Pierce Street that he heard the gunshots, mistaking them for a nail gun at first.

Littlelo wrote:

Do we have a fairly accurate idea of how many minutes there were between Brooks & Eric's conversation and the first shots fired outside/pipe bombs detonated?

This is a nice summary of Brooks' movements.
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sscc wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Do we have a fairly accurate idea of how many minutes there were between Brooks & Eric's conversation and the first shots fired outside/pipe bombs detonated?

This is a nice summary of Brooks' movements.
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Awesome, thank you

I've always been curious about the 1999 year end musical Oklahoma. Dylan is listed as doing sound for it and I have always wondered who was in it. I don't think they actually did it of course but it was after Smoke in the Room. Oklahoma was also my year end musical at my high school in 1999. I was Ado Annie.