The small questions thread

In keeping with what someone mentioned on another thread about examining the tiniest minutiae about this case... I was looking through part of the 11k, specifically the contents of Dylan's car. (pg. 10534) It says

"essay of crime, Dylan Klebold"

Do you think this is the "disturbing essay" Mrs. Kelly told the Klebold's about? If so, why do you think he kept it there? Coincidence or left intentionally?
It's that damn foreshadowing and dramatic irony stuffy again.

If the library was torn down in the summer of 2000. Does that mean technically the kids that were going to school from 99 to 2000 school year were at an active crime scene?

That had to of been eerie for that first year.

Screamingophelia wrote:

If the library was torn down in the summer of 2000.  Does that mean technically the kids that were going to school from 99 to 2000 school year were at  an active crime scene?

That had to of been eerie  for that first year.

I recently had a discussion with my boyfriend about this. It's very unfortunate they had to go back with that above them as they ate lunch. I recall reading somewhere many people in the community were upset that kids were sent back to the school with unpatched bullet holes in the hallway walls. It's a shame they couldn't work something out with other schools to keep the kids away from a crime scene. It had to be jarring to walk back into the school and have it still be a crime scene from your friends being murdered. It had to haunt many of them.

thelmar wrote:

In keeping with what someone mentioned on another thread about examining the tiniest minutiae about this case... I was looking through part of the 11k, specifically the contents of Dylan's car. (pg. 10534) It says

"essay of crime, Dylan Klebold"

Do you think this is the "disturbing essay" Mrs. Kelly told the Klebold's about? If so, why do you think he kept it there? Coincidence or left intentionally?
It's that damn foreshadowing and dramatic irony stuffy again.

I've read somewhere but cant remember the source, but ye it was the man in the black coat killing people one. Where I read it, the person hypothesized that Dylan read it before he went on the rampage to get in the mood and as a last motivation.

23september wrote:

thelmar wrote:

In keeping with what someone mentioned on another thread about examining the tiniest minutiae about this case... I was looking through part of the 11k, specifically the contents of Dylan's car. (pg. 10534) It says

"essay of crime, Dylan Klebold"

Do you think this is the "disturbing essay" Mrs. Kelly told the Klebold's about? If so, why do you think he kept it there? Coincidence or left intentionally?
It's that damn foreshadowing and dramatic irony stuffy again.

I've read somewhere but cant remember the source, but ye it was the man in the black coat killing people one. Where I read it, the person hypothesized that Dylan read it before he went on the rampage to get in the mood and as a last motivation.

I think he probably did too it was in his glove box

hvernon wrote:

I recall reading somewhere many people in the community were upset that kids were sent back to the school with unpatched bullet holes in the hallway walls.

Wow, that was hellishly unprofessional if true.

OK. I'm gonna set this question up by stating a few things I've read over the years. Trying to see if there's a connection, although I know we're just speculating at this point:

1) I remember reading in a transcript of the basement tapes, Dylan saying about some person (who might've been mentioned by name on the tape, but was redacted from all transcripts): "If I come across him [during NBK], you're gonna find his body without his jaw."
2) I remember in the transcript of the basement tapes that Eric and Dylan were making fun of someone who they called "dumbfuck voice". I think in the article I read, Adam Kyler's mother said it was her son they were mocking, because Dylan often mocked his learning disability--which I believe she said manifested itself partially in some sort of speech impediment.

Bearing all this in mind, does anyone wonder if the person Dylan is referencing in point 1 is Kyler?

Removing someone's jaw (presumably with a knife) isn't exactly an easy task to do during a mass shooting; it's time consuming and you must holster your firearms to do it, which carries a big risk of being tackled even if you have a partner with you. So this was obviously someone Dylan really hated, and the "magazine" psychologist in me thinks it had something to do with the intended victim's manner of speaking. I remember Kyler's mother saying Dylan behaved exceptionally cruel toward her son, so I feel it isn't far fetched that it could be him.

Any opinions on this speculation?

cory M wrote:

OK. I'm gonna set this question up by stating a few things I've read over the years. Trying to see if there's a connection, although I know we're just speculating at this point:

1) I remember reading in a transcript of the basement tapes, Dylan saying about some person (who might've been mentioned by name on the tape, but was redacted from all transcripts): "If I come across him [during NBK], you're gonna find his body without his jaw."
2) I remember in the transcript of the basement tapes that Eric and Dylan were making fun of someone who they called "dumbfuck voice". I think in the article I read, Adam Kyler's mother said it was her son they were mocking, because Dylan often mocked his learning disability--which I believe she said manifested itself partially in some sort of speech impediment.

Bearing all this in mind, does anyone wonder if the person Dylan is referencing in point 1 is Kyler?

Removing someone's jaw (presumably with a knife) isn't exactly an easy task to do during a mass shooting; it's time consuming and you must holster your firearms to do it, which carries a big risk of being tackled even if you have a partner with you. So this was obviously someone Dylan really hated, and the "magazine" psychologist in me thinks it had something to do with the intended victim's manner of speaking. I remember Kyler's mother saying Dylan behaved exceptionally cruel toward her son, so I feel it isn't far fetched that it could be him.

Any opinions on this speculation?

It was Brandon Larson

We never really got confirmation as to why they disliked him so much.

It's also odd when Dylan talks about someone's jawline since he had a pretty strong one, as did Eric. They must have looked at themselves as just scrawny and ugly even though I think if they expanded their horizons and left Littleton they would have found so many girls who would have thought their looks were great. I wouldn't have been surprised at the U of A if Dylan got some looks on campus, not that he would have noticed. However, their underlying issues of anger, depression etc.. scared girls off (we have proof of that with Eric)

I'm still a skeptical person when it comes to the Adam Kyler thing. For one he said Dylan drew a swastika on his face yet no one else ever said anything about that. You would think one of his friends would have asked him to wash it off... and they would have asked him what the hell he was thinking.

Plus when he acted like that, saying "sieg heil" and stuff at bowling it was never around his core group of friends except for Eric and Chris. He was a different person around Devon, Zach, Nate and Robyn. So I have to imagine he wouldn't have been nasty or racist around them. Exception maybe being when Zach was around just him and Eric because I think Zach had asshole tendencies.

Also if if was that serious WHY did Sue and Tom not know?

I also think it does lend to the theory that Dylan was bullied. When you feel powerless you start going after someone you may deem to be "weaker" also Adam is also human, he could have been mean to Dylan and others too. We all have the ability to be mean or kind.

I don't know why I get so impassioned about this particular topic, but I do.

QuestionMark wrote:

hvernon wrote:

I recall reading somewhere many people in the community were upset that kids were sent back to the school with unpatched bullet holes in the hallway walls.

Wow, that was hellishly unprofessional if true.

True. You would think they would have made sure to try to get rid of ANYTHING that would have triggered those poor kids.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

hvernon wrote:

I recall reading somewhere many people in the community were upset that kids were sent back to the school with unpatched bullet holes in the hallway walls.

Wow, that was hellishly unprofessional if true.

True. You would think they would have made sure to try to get rid of ANYTHING that would have triggered those poor kids.  

They changed the sound of the fire alarms I know that.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I also think it does lend to the theory that Dylan was bullied. When you feel powerless you start going after someone you may deem to be "weaker" also Adam is also human, he could have been mean to Dylan and others too. We all have the ability to be mean or kind.

Very well put. We know nothing about Adam and his behavior, except statements from him and his mother. Speaking anecdotally, when I did my time in high school there were honestly times when I was bullied "for no reason" but there were also times when I started out as the bully and the tables wound up turned on me and I had to take my medicine for the rest of the year. Obviously, in the latter scenario, I would conveniently leave a few details out when complaining to my parents/administrators.

Speaking of Columbine and bullying, has that Rocky dude ever spoken publicly about Columbine? From what I've read about him, he's made out to be some sort of larger than life campus super villain, and I've always wondered what he had to say. I can't help but question how NBK would've turned out had he still been around at Columbine.

cory M wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I also think it does lend to the theory that Dylan was bullied. When you feel powerless you start going after someone you may deem to be "weaker" also Adam is also human, he could have been mean to Dylan and others too. We all have the ability to be mean or kind.

Very well put. We know nothing about Adam and his behavior, except statements from him and his mother. Speaking anecdotally, when I did my time in high school there were honestly times when I was bullied "for no reason" but there were also times when I started out as the bully and the tables wound up turned on me and I had to take my medicine for the rest of the year. Obviously, in the latter scenario, I would conveniently leave a few details out when complaining to my parents/administrators.

Speaking of Columbine and bullying, has that Rocky dude ever spoken publicly about Columbine? From what I've read about him, he's made out to be some sort of larger than life campus super villain, and I've always wondered what he had to say. I can't help but question how NBK would've turned out had he still been around at Columbine.

I think I remember someone saying that he said he never knew them. However, I don’t know. I do know a lot of people that lived around here then and they all talk about him in the same way that he was just an awful person and he’s still awful...and they remember his large hummer.... the car was huge.

The thing is as awful as Rocky is/was Eric and Dylan will always be worse.

Random, really has nothing to do with anything, thought:

In the 11k+ I recall MANY (more than a dozen or so) kids say that they had Choir for their 5th hour class and they routinely skipped it. They all said they could just go in, sign their name on the attendance sheet and leave, and the teacher was none the wiser.
Sometimes I wonder if the Choir teacher ever read these statements and then started cracking down on attendance

thelmar wrote:

Random, really has nothing to do with anything, thought:

In the 11k+ I recall MANY (more than a dozen or so) kids say that they had Choir for their 5th hour class and they routinely skipped it. They all said they could just go in, sign their name on the attendance sheet and leave, and the teacher was none the wiser.
Sometimes I wonder if the Choir teacher ever read these statements and then started cracking down on attendance

Those concerts must have been a gem.... LOL

I think Zach Heckler was in the choir room and John Savage was supposed to be there but decided to go the library.

They had a lot more freedom than we did at my school at the time.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I was just thinking the same thing! I was a freshman in high school when this happened and my high school was super strict compared to Columbine!! They had so much slack it's unreal!
What about others here?? Was your high school strict or similar to Columbine? I'm curious...

TaylorsMom wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I was just thinking the same thing!  I was a freshman in high school when this happened and my high school was super strict compared to Columbine!!  They had so much slack it's unreal!
What about others here??  Was your high school strict or similar to Columbine?  I'm curious...

Exactly!! There was a story about how Chris Morris would just walk into his girlfriends class and start arguing with her and I'm thinking, HOW? Don't they have hall passes. I think Patti Neilen was technically the hall monitor on 4/20? I guess none of them cared.

It seems like at the school some of the guys (even Dylan... ) got away with almost as much as they say the jocks did.

I went to HS later but we didn't have a smokers pit, there were no open campus lunches, and there were multiple adults roaming each hallway all day to make sure everyone was in the right classroom.

I remember going to the bathroom once I lost my hallpass somehow and the hall monitor made me go back into my classroom with her and prove that I got the ok to go. It was strict there.

Does anyone remember a story from an article where I think it was Chad Laughlin talked about Mr. Carruthers walking around with a bull horn in the cafeteria.

Wasn’t that the teacher Eric liked? The one where he wrote about his arrest!

Screamingophelia wrote:

It seems like at the school some of the guys (even Dylan... ) got away with almost as much as they say the jocks did.

I suppose in a school as large as Columbine people tend to let way more things slide then they would normally. 

Then again that's no excuse for the incompetence of the administration to deal with the bullying problem.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

It seems like at the school some of the guys (even Dylan... ) got away with almost as much as they say the jocks did.

I suppose in a school as large as Columbine people tend to let way more things slide then they would normally. 

Then again that's no excuse for the incompetence of the administration to deal with the bullying problem.

Agreed

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wasn’t that the teacher Eric liked? The one where he wrote about his arrest!

I don't remember the bullhorn story but it was Mr. Tonelli's class for which Eric wrote the story about the "event that significantly impacted his life". I think E would write something like "T-Dog" in the upper right hand corner of his papers under his name and the class period.

thelmar wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Wasn’t that the teacher Eric liked? The one where he wrote about his arrest!

I don't remember the bullhorn story but it was Mr. Tonelli's class for which Eric wrote the story about the "event that significantly impacted his life". I think E would write something like "T-Dog" in the upper right hand corner of his papers under his name and the class period.

Thank you!!

I wonder what story I’m thinking about then.

Lizpuff wrote:

I went to HS later but we didn't have a smokers pit, there were no open campus lunches, and there were multiple adults roaming each hallway all day to make sure everyone was in the right classroom.

I remember going to the bathroom once I lost my hallpass somehow and the hall monitor made me go back into my classroom with her and prove that I got the ok to go.  It was strict there.

Sounds grotesque.

This has probably been asked before, but did Eric wear his KMFDM hat during the shooting?

SavageGlocker wrote:

This has probably been asked before, but did Eric wear his KMFDM hat during the shooting?

No. He was hat-less.

Does anyone remember an ebay listing from Jena Park? I spelled it wrong and she was selling her Columbine bear for like $25,000 and it said it was rare but I don't remember if it was all the seniors that got it, or if it was the seniors who survived the library?

I believe in Amanda Stair's testimonial she explained those were given to the students very shortly after the shooting. I could be wrong, but I feel like I remember her sharing that and possibly showing it on video as well.

What do you think would have happened if one of them decided to back off? I know it seems unlikely because they were into NBK but I wonder what would Dylan think if Eric backed off/Eric think if Dylan backed off.

icanmakeuhappy wrote:

What do you think would have happened if one of them decided to back off? I know it seems unlikely because they were into NBK but I wonder what would Dylan think if Eric backed off/Eric think if Dylan backed off.

I don't think it would have happened and I think Dylan would have killed himself.

How was Eric able to order ammo through green mountain guns when he was only 17?

Good question Screaming.

On the basement tapes, Dylan mentions learning to make poison from the internet, and on his drawing of his gear "poison" is listed as one of the pockets. Did they plan on using poison before shooting themselves to ensure suicide, or poison victims? What kind of poison?

Apparently, some days after the massacre, they found a propane bomb in the kitchen. Why isn't this talked about? What was its purpose, if not just more death? Is this why they went into the kitchen on the CCTV?

Also, more of a big question, but I assume it's been talked about before; is there a thread to link me which provides answers to "Why did they shoot people in the library" when as they said they were "going to blow up the library anyway" Why not just shoot at the bombs? Because Gardner stopped them from shooting those fleeing from the cafeteria?

Cheers

Wasn't that the nicotine poison that Dylan was talking about?

I sometimes think Dylan got very grandiose, he seemed to want to make it almost movie like.

I think they followed Patti into the library, were high on their adrenaline and wanted to wreck havoc in the library. They saw people they could torment and kill, when the high wore off they wandered around the school, Eric made a last ditch effort to detonate the bombs and when they didn't they were done.

As you know E&D planted their bombs in school at 10:58-10:59 and then they apparently went back to their cars waiting for the explosion. Shooting started at 11:19. Brooks Brown says in his book that he talked to Eric as he pulled over and was getting bags out of his car and that the shooting started "five minutes later". So according to Brooks version he met Eric minutes before 11:00 but the shooting would not begin for the next almost 20 minutes. So is Brooks wrong about the timeline?

Majk wrote:

As you know E&D planted their bombs in school at 10:58-10:59 and then they apparently went back to their cars waiting for the explosion. Shooting started at 11:19. Brooks Brown says in his book that he talked to Eric as he pulled over and was getting bags out of his car and that the shooting started "five minutes later". So according to Brooks version he met Eric minutes before 11:00 but the shooting would not begin for the next almost 20 minutes. So is Brooks wrong about the timeline?

I think he is mistaken about the timeline. Some people think that the conversation never really happened but I think he might just be wrong with the timeline to be honest

I find it hard to believe that the conversation really took placr. Besides noone can confirm that it really happened except Brooks himself...and what student tells the other: "you missed the test man. What's wrong with you?"

He justified it by saying that Eric was really really serious about school work , which I believe , and that he never would’ve missed the test. However I would think if my friend showed up at school later I would ask if everything was OK. I didn’t see you in class, is everything OK? not you idiot you missed the text. Because what if something happened to their family or something like that?

I think if you didn’t see Dylan in class I don’t think most people would be too worried because he seemed to rarely show up. Did you ever hear the story about his calculus teacher. Dylan asked if he could just come in for tests and do his homework on his own time...

Brooks was a well known liar, and he even admitted to this himself. SO that does make me question a lot of things he has said in regards to Eric and Dylan over the years.

When did Eric and Dylan become employees of Blackjack Pizza?

Tommy QTR wrote:

When did Eric and Dylan become employees of Blackjack Pizza?

I am thinking Eric the summer before junior year and Dylan in the fall. Since I think legally you have to be 16 to work in Colorado. However we all know how lenient their boss was so who knows...

Dylan left his house on april 20th at 5:30am according to Sue Klebold. Do we know what Eric and Dylan did that morning before recording the last basement tape?

Majk wrote:

Dylan left his house on april 20th at 5:30am according to Sue Klebold. Do we know what Eric and Dylan did that morning before recording the last basement tape?

Nothing overly substantiated.

We have Eric on tape getting the propane tanks. There were a couple witnesses saying that Dylan was at a Burger King. We only have what both of them wrote down for their morning routine that day.

I think Eric left pretty early before his parents got up. And then his parents got up got ready and did whatever they had to do and then when they got home it was after the last basement tape was recorded.I Assume they saw all of the things he left out , turned on the news and called the police

Just wondering, cuz that's quite a lot of time before they left their houses to the moment they were back home recording the last basement tape especially assuming the had all the guns and bombs prepared. Eric was recorded alone at the gas station at 7:56 am. Wonder if they did spend all that time before the massacre together or they spend some time apart...

Majk wrote:

Just wondering, cuz that's quite a lot of time before they left their houses to the moment they were back home recording the last basement tape especially assuming the had all the guns and bombs prepared. Eric was recorded alone at the gas station at 7:56 am. Wonder if they did spend all that time before the massacre together or they spend some time apart...

I would seriously give my right foot to know they talked about for the hours before.

Do you small talk? Do you reminisce about the past? Do you have a heart to heart?

I guess we would have all the answers if we knew what D&E were talking about during those last few hours.

Majk wrote:

I guess we would have all the answers if we knew what D&E were talking about during those last few hours.

That and the day they made the decision to do it.

Did we ever get confirmation that it was actually supposed to be the 19th?

In my opinion the plan from the beginning was to attack april 20th. I dont buy this whole theory of "not having enough ammo". You're planning the operation for almost a year and you change the date of the attack at the very last moment?

The part of the Basement Tapes labeled "Reb's Tape" is from April 11 and includes the quote "there are 7 and 1/3 days left." That's what is usually cited to say they originally planned the attack for the 19th.

Majk wrote:

As you know E&D planted their bombs in school at 10:58-10:59 and then they apparently went back to their cars waiting for the explosion. Shooting started at 11:19. Brooks Brown says in his book that he talked to Eric as he pulled over and was getting bags out of his car and that the shooting started "five minutes later". So according to Brooks version he met Eric minutes before 11:00 but the shooting would not begin for the next almost 20 minutes. So is Brooks wrong about the timeline?

This kind of thing is why I dislike the idea that they planned to shoot from their cars, which I think is a myth only inferred from their cars flanking the exits. "Go to outside hill, wait. When first bombs go off attack" was at least one of the notes Dylan made, and that seems to be what they did. Those notes also include setting the car bombs just a minute after the cafeteria bombs, so they'd be dead rather than shooting at people fleeing the cafeteria if they waited by the cars in that scenario.  Also, no chance to get injured or killed by the cafeteria bombs on top of the stairs (in fact the cafeteria would be out of sight, which has me wonder if they thought the bombs went off, though surely they'd hear it), while at least flying glass could be a worry standing in the parking lot. Also, what I think was decisive, what if people ran the other way, up the cafeteria stairs instead of out into the parking lot? On the stairs, they have the west entrance covered too if that happens, not to mention an elevated place to shoot. As far as I am aware, no witnesses see them "return to their cars" and wait, but several see them park, walk from their cars to the top of the stairs, wait, nod, and start firing.  

Brooks does not say Eric was walking back to his car, he says he pulled into the parking lot, and thought it was weird that he came to school after skipping classes. Not that his car was already there. The cafeteria bombs were most likely already planted. If they planted the  bombs just before 11, they left to "gear up" or whatever between 11 and the conversation with Brooks.

you have a good point it probably would be about a 3 to 5 minute run from the hill to that area of the school that gives them time to not get injured by the bombs if they went off



So why were they so close to the school checking on them?